"Across from Bihedral" bolt-a-thon

It seems like people have three different problems with this crag.

1. Trad lines were retro-bolted
2. It is over bolted
3. Bolts where gear is available

1. I don’t think that many people would argue that reto-bolting is ok without the consent of the FA party. There have been several cases in BC where the FA party has consented to the reto-bolting because they realized that the line was never climbed as a trad line and thought that it would be better to actually have people climb it.
2. Over bolting is relative. In my opinion complaining about over bolting is just a pissing contest. If you don’t like the bolt don’t clip it. I realize it’s hard to impress the high school girls climbing next to you when you have to clip every 4 feet but life goes on.
3. I agree it is preferable not to have bolts where good gear is available but in many cases there would be no gear available without the FA party cleaning all the crap out of the crack and if they are going to spend the time cleaning it they can bolt it how they like.

what kind of hangers are up there?

Tony B wrote: Everyone at the gym likes gym climbing. Everyone in on Everest likes high altitude climbing. Everyone lining up at the base of a chipped route is OK with chipping. Everyone at a KKK rally agrees on something too.

Good Point.

The same thing is happening here. The people commenting here are only a very small sample of this climbing community. Only those with a strong opinion one way or the other, or who are very bored at work, are posting. I just don't want people here to see that everyone else's comments agree with their comments and think that they are represnting the climbing community.

jmac wrote: ..very bored at work, are posting.

doesnt that apply to every post?

jmeizis wrote:It sucks but I think Colorado is one of the only states I've been in where people bolt obvious trad routes or retro routes without any discussion with anybody. BoCan and Shelf are prime examples. Bolted cracks, overbolting, crappy bolting. The excuses are pretty lame. It's safer, it's easier, more people will climb it, it's already a sport crag, it's mostly a sport climb, which is all a bunch of crap. For the most part I think BoCan has pretty good bolting with respect for traditional ethics but the convenience crowd has got their claws in this state pretty deep. I'm not against bolting by any means, but climbing is not an after school workout for people with no tolerance for risk or adventure. A lot of Colorado climbers seem to think otherwise.

Very well said. These days a lot of decisions 'route setters'(and I use this term instead of 'first ascentionists' deliberately) are making are based on convenience instead of what is good for the rock. America might be a democracy, but the rock doesn't get a vote.

Bruce

This all makes me so sad on so many fronts. I personally do not want to be considered a lazy climber because one day my whimp nodes kick in and I do not feel like doing a multi pitch run out trad climb because I am tired or injured. Every now and then I simply want to clip a few bolts with little to NO thought and just enjoy my friends, the sunshine and the rock. I have also always loved the ole saying that the best climber is the one having the most fun. In this world one person's junk is another person's treasure.

There are so many good thoughts, comments and passionate statements but there are also so many hurtful digs. I think of Everest often....and there is a good analogy here. Is it so awful that there are fixed lines to the summit? Those lines enable so many people to enjoy the climb that couldn't otherwise enjoy it, yet for those seeking the true alpine climb, they can jump on the West Ridge. Yeah I opened a can or worms here....don't go there....you get my point.

I recall being at the Bihedral often this past year and seeing so many people pushing themselves to their ultimate max on those closely bolted climbs and having so much fun. These people will never climb trad, they will never even get on a sport route that is run out....but they will play and have fun on these heavily bolted easy to climb routes - they will bring their kids and teach them to love climbing. For them, this is their Everest or their Naked Edge.

Climbers are such a passionate community and we all make mistakes now and then. Let's trust the developers to square things up with Leo.....just not through this forum. I have confidence in all parties involved.

Yes, I just had a boring moment at work.

Hugs to you all.

Tonya,

the feelings you express is why some of us in this particular thread are shaking our heads. Why should there be fixed lines on Everest just so a bunch of people who aren't qualified to climb it with a competent team be able to stand on the summit of the highest peak in the world? It cheapens the accomplishment and that is why climbing Everest, by one of the trade routes, isn't considered that big of a deal any more.

If people want to climb grid bolted line and push their limits, great, let them do it in the gym. Why should every rock have grid bolts or bolts every 3-4 feet just so people can safely push their limits?

In both these cases we see climbing being lowered to the lowest common denominator and that is why people, like me, have a hard time with what is happening.

I am not going to go out and remove any bolts, but I am also not going to sing the praises of all these new outdoor climbing gyms.
I guess I just wish climbers would think twice, three or maybe even four times before going out and grid bolting a cliff. As I said before, even though America is a democracy, the rock doesn't get a vote.

Bruce

Bruce, Ben and others:

How do people do that fancy box around someone's comment to repost it? Bruce thanks for giving me more to ponder as we all enjoy a healthy debate. I have just a couple more thoughts and inputs

When you say, "It cheapens the accomplishment and that is why climbing Everest, by one of the trade routes, isn't considered that big of a deal any more."

I would come back and ask: It cheapens it for who? For the person who already did it? Is the mountain only there for the elite and highly skilled climber? I would simply toss out there, that the person who jugs the line has an even deeper appreciation for the Websters, Shiptons and Ankers of the world (the people that did it the hard way).

Ben reminds us about the retrobolting....it has recently come to my attention that several of the obvious cracks at Cascade Crag were climbed in the early 70's and again in the 90's by some of our best local climbers. These guys have visited Cascade and have no issues.

Lastly I do understand that on the extreme end...those of us that are lovers of trad, and I am one of them, fear the preservation of the great lines and do not want to see them gone or off limits.

I promise not to chime in again on this subject. I still cannot wait to climb and am hoping for sunshine tomorrow.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: In both these cases we see climbing being lowered to the lowest common denominator and that is why people, like me, have a hard time with what is happening.

Retro-bolting is a no-no -- everyone seems to agree with that -- and I'm not interested in debating the merits of bolting an obscure, meaningless boulder, but you have to help me out here. Climbing is an intensely personal and selfish activity. At least that's what I've always thought. Why should you really care if the "lowest common denominator" gets out and climbs in a style that you might find offensive (I can't even imagine why that would be)? There are plenty of death routes out there that will never be retro'ed. If that's your thing, go for it. The fact that some rocks are grid-bolted shouldn't really affect your experience one way or another. You simply avoid those places. As far as messing with the rock goes, if the routes are crap, the bolts will fade into obscurity. I doubt if the rock really cares that much.

Shouldn't you be as equally critical of the development of places like Dream Canyon? Animal World? Avalon? How about the Canal Zone? In my opinion, those places hold more than one really awful line -- they need to go! I've never been to the area in question, but my suspicion is that it's not really a whole lot different than those that I mentioned.

Tonya Riggs wrote:Bruce, Ben and others: How do people do that fancy box around someone's comment to repost it? Bruce thanks for giving me more to ponder as we all enjoy a healthy debate. I have just a couple more thoughts and inputs When you say, "It cheapens the accomplishment and that is why climbing Everest, by one of the trade routes, isn't considered that big of a deal any more." I would come back and ask: It cheapens it for who? For the person who already did it? Is the mountain only there for the elite and highly skilled climber? I would simply toss out there, that the person who jugs the line has an even deeper appreciation for the Websters, Shiptons and Ankers of the world (the people that did it the hard way).

Tonya,

Everyone has their own goals and they strive to achieve them. So, if someone's goal is to climb Mount Everest by clipping fixed lines and they do just that, then they have achieved their goal. That is their own personal goal. Not some ground breaking, historic event, just the achievement of a personal goal.

However, something like climbing Mount Everest used to be considered a very special and difficult in the general climbing community. You got a group of buddies together, hired a few sherpas to carry supplies(not put up a trail of fixed ropes to the summit) and hoped that you could somehow gel as a team, acclimate and get to the summit.

Now, because there are fixed lines all the way from the bottom to the top on the trade routes, climbing Mount Everest by the South Col, for example, is not considered all that difficult. That, for me, and from what I read, the general climbing community, cheapens what an ascent of Mount Everest means.

Bruce

Richard Radcliffe wrote: Retro-bolting is a no-no -- everyone seems to agree with that -- and I'm not interested in debating the merits of bolting an obscure, meaningless boulder, but you have to help me out here. Climbing is an intensely personal and selfish activity. At least that's what I've always thought. Why should you really care if the "lowest common denominator" gets out and climbs in a style that you might find offensive (I can't even imagine why that would be)? There are plenty of death routes out there that will never be retro'ed. If that's your thing, go for it. The fact that some rocks are grid-bolted shouldn't really affect your experience one way or another. You simply avoid those places. As far as messing with the rock goes, if the routes are crap, the bolts will fade into obscurity. I doubt if the rock really cares that much. Shouldn't you be as equally critical of the development of places like Dream Canyon? Animal World? Avalon? How about the Canal Zone? In my opinion, those places hold more than one really awful line -- they need to go! I've never been to the area in question, but my suspicion is that it's not really a whole lot different than those that I mentioned.

Richard,

as someone who has put up a route at the Canal Zone, that's a fair question. I don't think at the Canal Zone it was necessary to completely scrub the rock bare of lichen so that it stands out.
One of the reasons some of the newer areas have been just recently been "discovered" is that to put up routes on rock a huge amount of cleaning and scrubbing was necessary. Canal Zone was recently discovered because Jefferson County put up a nice new bridge which allowed easy access to an undeveloped crag.

Some may argue that because the route setters spent so much time scrubbing and cleaning the rock they should be able to do what they want with the crag. I would argue that if so much scrubbing and cleaning is required, why not just leave the rock alone and go somewhere else.

As I have said several times before, many climbers view the rocks as part of nature and not just some outdoor climbing gymnasium. It is difficult to draw a line between "OK" route development and wholesale deforrestation, but the line is there somewhere.

That's one of the nice things about trad climbing and also ground up first ascents. In most cases, they leave a lot less environmental impact on the rock. Maybe the new generation of gym climbers don't worry about environmental impact, but I, for one, do.

Bruce

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: As I have said several times before, many climbers view the rocks as part of nature and not just some outdoor climbing gymnasium. It is difficult to draw a line between "OK" route development and wholesale deforrestation, but the line is there somewhere. That's one of the nice things about trad climbing and also ground up first ascents. In most cases, they leave a lot less environmental impact on the rock. Maybe the new generation of gym climbers don't worry about environmental impact, but I, for one, do. Bruce

As do I. Many of us old-timers (and, to be fair, many newer climbers as well) got into climbing because of their love of natural beauty and their desire to play outside.

But you're talking about something different now. Before, your point was essentially that bolting or putting up fixed lines somehow cheapened your personal climbing experience, dumbing it down if you will. That's the part I don't understand. By that logic, indoor gym climbers should also cheapen the outdoor experience. For that matter, bowling should cheapen the climbing experience as well, not that I have anything against bowling.

Mr. Packwood is concerned that convenience will become the norm and many trad lines will get bolted. It seems to me we've gotten past that and it's discussions like this that will keep it that way (hopefully). Although I have to admit: there is a real danger for complacency. A heinous act is difficult the first time around, but it gets easier and easier each time you do it...

Its kinda snowy out now, maybe a rap station back to my car is in order!!

Tonya Riggs wrote:Bruce, Ben and others: How do people do that fancy box around someone's comment to repost it? Bruce thanks for giving me more to ponder as we all enjoy a healthy debate. I have just a couple more thoughts and inputs

Just hit that quote option up and right of the post you're lookin' at. It's pretty dang cool, and you can edit it to fit your response once you get the hang of it..........did I say that out loud?

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: Now, because there are fixed lines all the way from the bottom to the top on the trade routes, climbing Mount Everest by the South Col, for example, is not considered all that difficult. That, for me, and from what I read, the general climbing community, cheapens what an ascent of Mount Everest means. Bruce

For real, you think Everest is "not considered all that difficult"? I haven't been there, but would love to hear your TR.

Hank Caylor wrote: For real, you think Everest is "not considered all that difficult"? I haven't been there, but would love to hear your TR.

You go right for the jugular, don't you? It must be that Texas upbringing.

Now that The Canal Zone has been drug into this, I guess I'll have to pipe up.
Conveniently rap bolting to set routes with thoughtful, strategic clips, using a power drill to install fat bolts, keeping run-outs reasonable, all allow one to focus on movement over stone free from terror.
Having enjoyed my share of the true sickness one must posses to even be involved with the rigors of ground up, on sight FA's... I'd have to say that bolts are all about convenience... run it out 30 or 40 feet on a remote sea of nipples and knobs with hammer, drill, maybe a few hooks and you get convenient pretty quick when you get the chance. Moving over stone, often terrified... those good old 1/4 bolts only took about a half hour to drill.
No matter how a route goes in the FA deserves respect, especially when the route offers fantastic movement; proves to be a gem.
For sure the decision to retro-bolt a route needs to reside solely with whoever put it up regardless of the quality or nature of the route. I don't have any problem with bolt replacement though... Thanks Kevin Striker!

cdg wrote:Its kinda snowy out now, maybe a rap station back to my car is in order!!

Oh YEAH!!! I knew these pics would come in handy!!

Bolted Car

As I read through the issue being discussed, I wonder about what the elite climbers really think. I agree that re-bolting is a no-no as does just about everyone on this forum. I agree that the FA's have the right to decide how a route should be climbed. I am new to the area and just getting back into climbing. In my teen's and early 20's I was a Trad Climber up to 5.11. Now that I am in my 40's and returning to the sport I am doing mainly sport climbs. In watching the sport grow over the past 25 years, I think about how some people thought cams would destroy Trad climbing and it was in effect cheating for those fat cracks where a chock would not hold. Their were no climbing gyms. So if you were going to learn how to climb Trad, you had to either pay a lot of money to have someone teach you, or were lucky enough to have a friend that had a full rack and was willing to spend the time teaching you how to climb. I was lucky and had that friend. Most of growth and innovation in the climbing industry has come from attracting new people to the sport, that is what the guys putting up the sport routes appear to be doing. Trying to attract and retain people in the sport. I agree that climbing requires a significant investment, but having spent 5 years building up a rack when I was young, I have no desire to do it again and therefore pursue the sport routes, because they are fun, offer a great way to enjoy the outdoors, and you can challenge yourself at different levels. Yes, over bolting sometimes spoils a route, but for those who are building confidence in themselves it might just be the confidence boost they need to go to the next level.

It is the popularity of attracting new climbers that help fund groups like the Access Fund, American Alpine Club, and other local climbing coalitions. There is a balance but perhaps you need to weigh the good with the bad and recognize that just as your car has changed in the past 30 years, so will your climbing.

Richard Radcliffe wrote: As do I. Many of us old-timers (and, to be fair, many newer climbers as well) got into climbing because of their love of natural beauty and their desire to play outside. But you're talking about something different now. Before, your point was essentially that bolting or putting up fixed lines somehow cheapened your personal climbing experience, dumbing it down if you will. That's the part I don't understand. By that logic, indoor gym climbers should also cheapen the outdoor experience. For that matter, bowling should cheapen the climbing experience as well, not that I have anything against bowling.

Richard,

I apologize if you thought my original comments were that I felt scrubbing, grid-bolting and fixed lines cheapened my experience. That's not what I meant to say.

Here is what I said before:

"the feelings you express is why some of us in this particular thread are shaking our heads. Why should there be fixed lines on Everest just so a bunch of people who aren't qualified to climb it with a competent team be able to stand on the summit of the highest peak in the world? It cheapens the accomplishment and that is why climbing Everest, by one of the trade routes, isn't considered that big of a deal any more."

Reading this again, I don't see how this says that I feel my experience has been cheapened.

Bruce