Calling 911 in JeffCo
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I left for Yosemite immediately after the accident at Lover's Leap on the 7th (thread here) |
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So odd that this comes up... we were at Lovers Leap today and found a man's body at the base. We called into 911 and they were such a pain in the ass to get somebody up there. Unfortunately an unknown free climber died probably yesterday up there. We found his body and it took over an hour and half to get anybody near the body other than my partner and I. Imagine if the man were alive or barely alive. Gregger Man wrote:I left for Yosemite immediately after the accident at Lover's Leap on the 7th (thread here) I wanted to recount a surprising thing that happened when I called 911. When Matt fell at the top of the first pitch, my cell phone was out of my backpack within 20 seconds and I had a dispatcher on the phone within a minute. I tried to be as concise as possible. The dispatcher said something to the effect of 'what's your emergency?'. -Rock climbing accident at Lover's Leap rock formation on 285. We're going to need an ambulance. The climber has a compound fracture. Please call Alpine Rescue. She proceded to tell me (a little indignantly) that she couldn't just call whomever I wanted, and that I would need to cooperate with her so that she could help me. -Fine. I understand that it's the sheriff's call, but I know some of the guys on the Alpine team and I would appreciate it if you would call them. She let me know that she didn't care who I was, I wasn't the one calling the shots. She was apparently pissed that I was requesting someone other than the fire department. I don't know if she was poorly trained, or if she was just befuddled by what she saw as a short-circuit to the standard protocol, but she was basically giving me a dressing-down during the initial 2 minutes of an emergency call. I think it was extremely inappropriate and unprofessional. I handed off the phone to my belayer within another minute so I could lead up to Matt, but the interaction shocked me. I asked for Alpine Rescue because I've paid attention to the charge-for-rescue issue in Jefferson County over the past few years. It is apparently still incumbent on the injured climber to request a volunteer rescue team over the services of the (arguably far less qualified in technical climbing terrain) fire department. Legally, you can refuse treatment from anyone. If you refuse treatment by the fire department on the 911 call and they show up anyway and try to charge you for the service, at least there is a permanent public record of your refusal. Something to think about. |
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Thanks for the report about the 911 etiquette. It's too bad the operator was antagonistic. It almost seems worth it to call Alpine Rescue as well if you can't get cooperation. |
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Gregger Man wrote:It is apparently still incumbent on the injured climber to request a volunteer rescue team over the services of the (arguably far less qualified in technical climbing terrain) fire department. Legally, you can refuse treatment from anyone. If you refuse treatment by the fire department on the 911 call and they show up anyway and try to charge you for the service, at least there is a permanent public record of your refusal.When you call 911 for help you do not get to choose who comes to your assistance. When you get hurt in someones juridiction you get the service(s)available there. Whether you like it/them or not, whether they give poor service or not that's the way it works. If you don't like it than don't spend time in that area. If it was standard protocol to dispatch whomever someone request's everytime there is an emergency can you imagine what would happen? Do you know how many people cry wolf? Resources would be committed to all kinds of BS....and people with serious emergencies might not get the help they need, when they need it. The dispatcher is taught to be in control and stay in control...you need to relise that you are not in control. Answer their questions, give them the info they need. That is the fastest way to get the assistance you need. Sometimes that assistance isn't going to come fast enough, but it's the best system to assist people over all. Also the INJURED CLIMBER/PATIENT can, under certain circumstance's, refuse MEDICAL TREATMENT. You as their friend, partner, whatever cannot refuse it for them. Refusal of a rescue operation is an entirely different matter, once a Fire department, rescue team, whatever has been called they have a legal duty to act. You can not refuse their aid at that point. They have legally assumed control of the scene. However if you don't want the available help than you need to either self rescue or call your friends personally. If you want to try and cover yourself for latter expense's by stating that you want a volunteer rescue team go ahead...it might help it might not. I'd think if your friend needed help the last thing to consider is how much money it's going to cost. I'm personaly not a fan of the "pay for rescue" routine. However I'd rather see that then FD's and rescue teams just not be able to respond because they have no money. A tough problem from many angles. josh |
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Tim Kline wrote:So odd that this comes up... we were at Lovers Leap today and found a man's body at the base. We called into 911 and they were such a pain in the ass to get somebody up there. Unfortunately an unknown free climber died probably yesterday up there. We found his body and it took over an hour and half to get anybody near the body other than my partner and I. Imagine if the man were alive or barely alive. By the way there was a fatality at Lovers Leap today, my condolences to the mans family and I really want to thank the Park Ranger (Mike) and the rest of the Alpine team that came up to help retrieve this mans body. I don't know who he was, I can only speculate that he was free soloing and fell. But my climbing partner and I found him about 11:30 today.I'm very sorry that you had this experience, it must have been very unsettling. Are you sure he was a climber? josh |
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Josh- |
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Sorry about the bad reception from 911 in Jeffco. I do however understand the personal wish for the Alpine Rescue Team. They are just that bad ass. |
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Gregger, |
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This particular topic I can somewhat respond to, but in a limited manner since there is discussion of both recent missions we had there. |
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Buff Johnson wrote: One point I saw in this topic that needs a small clarification: there is no duty to perform SAR in this country. Yes, you still can refuse aid if you do not have diminished mental capacity.That's not entirely true. If you work for a non volunteer department and aid is called for in your jurisdiction you are required to act. Once a call is made and especially once you have arrived on scene, you then have a duty to act, volunteer or not. The only aid that can be refused is medical, and that is without dimished mental capacity(including drugs or alcohol of any amount) and assuming that you are over 18. Giving out the information is the right thing to do, of course, but it needs to be done by not demanding things of the dispatcher. josh |
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J. Thompson wrote: [...] Giving out the information is the right thing to do, of course, but it needs to be done by not demanding things of the dispatcher. joshI did say 'please' :0) |
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Josh, here is a pretty good bit of info as to the effect of dollars & SAR in this country from the AAC: |
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Buff Johnson wrote:Therefore, no duty does exist nor will exist for this state in regard to performing SAR.Buff, That refers to a general duty to act....I'm stating that once a SAR as in this case...is intitated the responders have a duty to act. So if you don't like the folks that show up you can't just say "no thanks" at that point. Meaning you can't just "refuse treatment" to a SAR like you can for medical. josh |
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An aside for those considering self rescue. When you administer first aid to somebody, you are covered against lawsuits by Good Samaritan laws (except for gross negligence like tourniquet on the neck). But you are NOT protected by those laws if something goes wrong during the rescue. |
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Josh, I think I see what you're getting at, which is more once care is provided at a certain level, it must be maintained throughout. This is different than what Greg is discussing and how he's relating a SAR incident. Which is clear to me how the state and county need to define it. |
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Clyde wrote:An aside for those considering self rescue. When you administer first aid to somebody, you are covered against lawsuits by Good Samaritan laws (except for gross negligence like tourniquet on the neck). But you are NOT protected by those laws if something goes wrong during the rescue.This is too vague a statement, excepting the acts of gross negligence portion. You are a climbing team that has accepted risk; if your partner goes down in technical terrain in backcountry wilderness, are you then at fault for not effecting proper notification by not having every latest gizmo that may or may not work to notify the authorities? no. You do the best you can not to make the situation any worse. If you can safely effect a buddy rescue without the need for stabilization, do it. If you have a situation that needs more hands for stabilization, don't push it. In any case, where it's obvious your partner is in need of aid; SAR help should be there and at no charge, make yourselves safe & stable as you can and make the effort to notify about your situation; which could end up being having someone else call you in overdue, this happens the most. There is some reasonableness here with what we do as climbers and there is nothing wrong with educating in aid and buddy rescue to try and survive until SAR arrives. |