First go at aid please clarify a couple problems I ran into.

I aided a pitch today or really easy crack just to work out the sequence and ran into a couple questions/problems I hope someone can clarify.
1. I think this one is going to be "yes suck it up" but I thought I might be missing something so here it is. Once you've clipped your aider into your highest piece and then high step above the piece is there anything to be done to prevent a static fall directly on that piece? I'm currently using just two aiders so balance seems to be a bit more of a concern and therefor I'm a bit more unsteady standing above gear and a funky shift of weight could lead to a short but static fall on that placement.

2. I'm using Fish easy daisys which feel like they keep me too far from the hard point where they are clipped into the aider. As tight as I pull in I still can't seem to get up even with or above my gear without having my ass sticking out in the air. Perhaps I just need to sack up or perhaps I need to get a fifi and some regular daisys. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Josh

1. Immediately unclip your aider/daisy combo from the last piece. Then clip in the rope.

2. A fifi will get you in closer, but you probably don't need it yet.

If the crack is low angle, try
a)balancing on your aider without use of the daisy. Leaning in to the wall will eliminate the need for the daisy
b) standing a step higher in the aider. this will pull you back in

If the crack is steep, you can only get so high on the piece

on walls between approx. 85 and 95 Degrees, tee-ing off helps. this is a ron olevsky technique where you pass the foot your not standing on BETWEEN the aider and the rock (and above the foot you're standing on. Then you push down with your tee foot onto the toes of your standing foot while pushing up with your toes of the standing foot. This is extremely stable.

try this many times. Aiding efficiently takes practice.

Aiding without a fifi is a lot more work. Adjustable aiders are great for jugging, and for testing a piece or for aiding roofs and traverses. You really waste a lot of time (and energy) hauling the slack from your adjustables and then extending them every move. On easy aid just keep them at arms length. Place a piece, clip in your aider/daisy combo, step up the aider and immediately fifi into the top biner(which should be your aider not your daisy BTW). As you are holding onto the biner or handloop of your aider you shouldn't need to adjust your daisy at all during this process. Don't try to top step unless you cannot get a piece in lower, the extra time and effort to balance yourself is not worth the extra 6 inches. If you do have to top step you usually have to un-fifi, and this is where the adjustable daisy (or easier a quickdraw clipped to your belay loop) comes in handy.

I wouldn't worry too much about a static fall on the piece you are on as you will never be that high above it in the first place. Also adjustable daisy's are not rated for falls, and in a high force situation will extend or break before you are likely to get hurt.

good luck.

Well as you have already realized adj daisys DON'T get you close enough to your piece period.

Kevin is SPOT ON .Although I don't agree w/ his take on daisy falls
the Yates adj's are rated at 1500 lbs and the Fish are around 1000lbs
even the webbing is rated high clip off the rope as soon as your waist high and unclip the lower aiders as soon as your established on the higher aider ie move on to it this is why you NEED A FIFI! see below

I don't agree w/Adam. YOU NEED A FIFI/BIENER QUICK CLIP FROM DAY ONE!

I only bust out the daisys to jug or for hard aid.

For traverses,roofs,Jugging ect you'll find a good use for your adj daisys

Don't know what kind of aiders you use but don't forget you can fifi into the steps or the grab loop if ya have to. This helps esp wellwhen reaching down to unclip your lower aiders and back cleaning .

Remember just like in free climbing try and keep the weight off your
arms and on your feet/waist hang off that fifi!

Always clip off the rope when your waist high with your piece this alone has saved my ass many times

Avoid spectra daisys they don't have any strech like nylon and don't
last nearly as long

Avoid daisy falls like the plague if you value your back,nuts,kidneys
ect,ect...

As I am still learning, your struggles are very familiar to me. A couple of thoughts;

1. I use a quickdraw to clip in like a fifi. When high stepping, really try to tension yourself with your legs pushing up and your fifi pulling down. Being aggressive with this oppositional force has made me a lot more stable.

2. I have the tendency to want to almost pull myself up to my piece on the adj. daisy. This seems more secure, but it is tiring, time consuming, and hard on your gear. I try to just climb up to the piece and clip in with the draw.

3. Depending on how concernerd your are with a daisy fall, some daisies have screamers built into them. I would think it makes the distance to your piece even farther, but pick your poison.

cheers
Evan

1. A few answers: a) Pay attention to your balance and simply don't wing out of your aiders. b) Fifi's sure are nice for temporary security. c)Teeing off as described by Adam really is a nice trick. d) Consider not using daisies for leading easy aid (see below). e) With a C1 placement, I occasionally break with the aid climbing tradition and clip a piece of pro above my head. The only downfall with this is the extra energy of lifting the rope up, but now you're on TR!

2. My primary suggestion is to change your MO. For leading aid, think of the daisy simply as a tether for your aiders, so you can't drop 'em into the abyss. With that function defined, consider that there's no reason to drop your aiders on C1 because every piece is bomber, i.e. nothing should blow. Removal of the daisy also results in less cluster = more efficient = faster process. Everyone will have different thresholds and confidence intervals, but I usually clip the daisies back on for the short C2 cruxes I do, just in case something rips before it's clipped to the rope or I've removed it.

A secondary and not entirely recommended solution, but which would keep your overall system similar, would be to have aider and daisy clipped on the same biner, thus eliminating the 3 inches lost with using 2 biners. Maybe you've already been doing this.

As others have mentioned, the only times I actually weight my daisies while leading is on traverses or roofs. I do this because, in these situations, I think the energy output of reeling yourself in via adjustable daisy and then resetting it is generally less than what you'll expend standing up in your aiders.

One of the fun things about aid climbing is that there tend to be tons of different solutions to every problem, and usually a few of those are of similar high quality. Gather all the tips and ideas you can, but ultimately just get out there and log some miles!

Oh, and one other note on fifi hooks. They can be a REAL DRAIN on speed if used excessively. There's no need to hang out in each and every step of your aiders while you fart around. On lower angle stuff, there's no reason to use the fifi at all. The biggest breakthrough for me with aid climbing efficiency was not any fancy techniques, but simply invoking this mantra: "Keep making upward progress!"

Joshua,

Welcome aboard to the aid climbing forum.

Lots of good points here to incorporate into developing your own system. What works for one person may not work for another. That's what make's aid climbing fun.

For straightforward aid I don't use daisies at all. But i always use either a fifi or a quick clip. In many years of aid climbing I have yet to drop a aider. I'll probably don't one next week now!

When it gets harder I use traditional dasies and a fifi. Sometimes I use an adjustable fifi. Depends on the route. I have tried adjustable dasies and have pretty given up on them. I personally find them heavy and the cons outweight the pros. Best place for a adjustable is for attaching it as your tether for the haul bag. Most people I've climbed with don't agree with me on this.

Top stepping is pretty much overrated and takes up too much energy and time. I only top step when I can't get to the next piece. When my waist is level with my piece I fifi in. If you are using dasies clip the daisy into the top loop of the aider via a different biner. That way if you fall onto it, the stitching on the aider can act as a mini zipper! So you have the biner for clipping the piece and then the small locking biner for attaching the daisy to the aider. Also by keeping them separate you can mimimize tangles, etc.

Go back to the same crack several times and try different methods and you're be surprised at how fast you can get aiding. Cound the number of moves it takes and try to elimate some and time yourself as well.

Most people don't put the time into it to get good and fast, but it's just like free climbing. You don't expect to climb well untill you have logged some serious miles on rock and aiding is no diffent.

Enjoy!

Cheers

john

Thanks for all the great replies and options. Looks like I have quite a few options to cycle through and work out the best system for myself.
John good call on using the daisy stitching break strength to reduce static fall that may be the determining factor whether I switch over to regular old daisys fairly quickly. It was stated above that the fall force wouldn't be enought to cause damage but I like my back too much to chance it.

Maybe this is kind of ghetto, but I girth-hitched some compact screamers to my end daisys and I made a point to by nylon daisys.

Makes me feel better at least......

Also consider if you loose your balance and fall onto the piece you are daisied to and aiding off of it will be more of a pendulum than a fall. If your lucky you might even flip over and get a chuckle out of your partner if you have one. More of an embarrassment than anything. You can't take a real daisy fall while weighting a piece unless a carabiner breaks or you jump from your aider.

If you have a bomber piece above you another trick is to clip the rope in then use the rope to pull yourself up. It's a 2 to 1 mechanical advantage. Just make sure it's bomber.

I didn't see a answer to your question only people trying to talk you into doing things their way.

As far as avoiding static falls, AS SOON as you commit to your upper piece get the hell off the lower one and unclip it...

I use adjustables also, I love them and would never use standard ones. That said I felt for a long time I was too far from my pro when I got into my second step, but you'll find as long as you rig them right it's not that bad. There are times I need to get a bit closer, like on over hung rock. This is where foot work comes into practice. Learn how to back step in your aiders, it's a great tool and a lost art. If that doesn't work for you, have a fifi on your harness and clip directly to the piece.

I hope this helped...

Zac

A follow up question. In line with original post, not to steal the thread.

When I am at the top of my aider and fified (spelling?) in I set my next peice and get ready to start weighting/testing it. Do I want to un fifi before I move my foot to the new peice and start testing it?

If I un fifi and it blows I will be unbalanced and possibly taking the daisy chain staic fall/ short fall to the rope if that catches first. (Since I am on top of my aider my waiste is above the piece and I have allready cliped the rope to it.) Unless I can stay balanced well enough on the aider not to fall at all.

If I leave my fifi in, and the new peice blows I am going to jar myself on the fifi. Although it is a very small 'fall'.

When do you un fifi?

Jon

The only rule to fifi'ing is don't un-weigh it and expect it to stay put. Other than that, it all depends on the situation.

There are, of course, individual preferences and different styles. Still, I think most of what someone new ought to know can be found in Chris McNamara's drafts for his book on big wall technique. The directory page is

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…