Devil's Lake Guiding/ Group Ethics

Amen to all noted details above. So often have I seen hideous top rope anchors made from tiny stoppers( 00 RP's come to mind) tied off to a single straight(not a looped) piece of webbing clipped to a 4 pound steel locking biner from 1966. And backed up with a cam between 2 small rocks half sunk in the dirt. Yes, it bothers me to see groups of noobs' from gyms like VE in Warrenville come out to be taught:..
anchors class, toprope class, intro to leading, etc..These young 20 something gym climbers think that since they spent $100 plus on this 'training', they are now qualified to do just about anything on real rocks they have hardly ever touched. And sad they don't reach out to learn from experience real rock climbers, instead of sporty gym dudes and dudettes'. Money buys it all, not learing through experience. '5.10' climbing they achieved in 3 weeks in the gym makes them the equal to any seasoned climber they figure.
Gotta agree the cliffs were under total Club control throughout the fabulous 80's. Just check the book and route lists. Still irks me today that the DNR took away our favorite party campground.

Well I would like to add in a actual guide perspective. I have been a AMGA certified instructor (Multi Pitch) for about 8 years. I have taught for both the AMGA and VEGA. Which are both world class organizations, that do a ton of good for the community. As for the last person who said that we guides aren't real climbers, I am afraid you are very wrong my friend. I grew up climbing big wall in Yosemite. I have climbed all over the world and have more then 17 year of experience under my belt. I am a Wilderness EMT, I have worked search and rescue, and volunteered over 100 hours with the Access Fund. So I do take personal offense. Learning from your grandfather's best friend's cousin is the old way. Climbing is moving out of the dark ages and needs standardized practices, and guiding ethics. If you don't like the guiding world as it currently stands then I recommend that you run to sit on the board of the AMGA so that you can do something about it. Please don't use such huge generalizations. I agree that there are plenty of unqualified guides out there, but there are also plenty of knowledgeable and experienced guides out there who do a lot of good for the community as a whole. If you have never guided then you truly don't know what it is like, so all I ask is for a little more honest perspective in these types of conversations. Lets try to be fair.

Oliver981 wrote:Well I would like to add in a actual guide perspective. I have been a AMGA certified instructor (Multi Pitch) for about 8 years. I have taught for both the AMGA and VEGA. Which are both world class organizations, that do a ton of good for the community. As for the last person who said that we guides aren't real climbers, I am afraid you are very wrong my friend. I grew up climbing big wall in Yosemite. I have climbed all over the world and have more then 17 year of experience under my belt. I am a Wilderness EMT, I have worked search and rescue, and volunteered over 100 hours with the Access Fund. So I do take personal offense. Learning from your grandfather's best friend's cousin is the old way. Climbing is moving out of the dark ages and needs standardized practices, and guiding ethics. If you don't like the guiding world as it currently stands then I recommend that you run to sit on the board of the AMGA so that you can do something about it. Please don't use such huge generalizations. I agree that there are plenty of unqualified guides out there, but there are also plenty of knowledgeable and experienced guides out there who do a lot of good for the community as a whole. If you have never guided then you truly don't know what it is like, so all I ask is for a little more honest perspective in these types of conversations. Lets try to be fair.

Oliver I think the thrust of this thread is how guides, experienced or not, have a tendency to take over certain climbs at Devil's Lake in Wisconsin. If you show up at the Lake, drop a bunch of TRs on the most popular routes on a busy weekend, then I (and many others) will get upset, no matter how many big walls you've done. You could be Gaston Rebuffat and it would still be uncool.

Ditto again. It's that some 'guides', often the inexperienced ones who have only climbed 14 routes at DL, take their crowd to those same 14 routes every trip up there. And again, the area has tons of favorites that are packed in together closely. I remember when the Iowa Mountaineers used to come up there for decades and run a great clinic or class in the most out of the way areas. You didn't see them, or hear them. Respectful and well disciplined they were with their Univ. of Iowa groups throughout the year. Weekends yes, guides need to hoof it up to the the West Bluffs or Horse Ramparts to get away from the crowds.

Oliver, try reading the thread again.
And, there ARE alot of guides out there that are NOT certified, except for the "Jackass" certification, which they utilize repeatedly while hogging climbs that their clients shouldn't even be on.

At DL we share ropes and all leaders have right of way, that's the rule and it has always been that way.

Maybe guides should take their hordes to the well concentrated short easy moderates on the west bluff, the major and minor mass areas, the quarry rocks, and countless other crags that most climbers ignore because all there is, is a bunch of easy short climbs.

Early bird gets the worm! We at VE Chicago have arrived at the top of the east buttress as late as 8:00 a.m. on a Saturday or Sunday, not a soul in sight, not an anchor or top rope set up in sight! We happily share the crag, and have gracefully allowed trad climbers the right of way! Those of you on a non-guided trip could just as easily head to the west bluff or another lesser used/lesser quality climbs when you find the east bluff crowded. If you've never been to other crowded climbing areas (such as Joshua Tree in high season), you've never experienced the "take a number and wait your turn" climbing scene. So get up early! Enjoy the sunrise!

Anita Johnson wrote:We at VE Chicago have arrived at the top of the east buttress as late as 8:00 a.m. on a Saturday or Sunday,

As late as 8:00 a.m.? I shudder to think of what's considered early.

The big difference in your reasoning Anitia, is that those who you ask to find other places to climb are doing so for fun. If you are guiding, you on the other hand are doing so for $$$$.

I used to guide at Devil's Lake for the now-defunct Dairyland Expeditions. Our policy was to never, NEVER, guide on the East Rampart. In five years, I never once guided on the East, and to my knowledge, neither did any of the other DE guides. There are so many other, better, places to take groups: Elephant Rocks, The Turret, Birthday Rocks, Horse Rampart, Railroad, Misery, Stettners, Porkchop, Queens Amphitheater, Wiessner's, Reclining Tower. I guided at each of these places, but I never went to the East. It just wasn't worth it for me (or my clients) to be right on top of others who are climbing for a much different reason that I was on that day.

Jay, is there any kind of official approval process for guides and guide companies to work at DL? Or is it a free for all?

I believe at Josh there is a strict policy on guiding, and other NP's as well.

I'm not sure. I know that back when I was guiding, it was a free-for-all. It may have changed since then, but I'm not the person to ask.

I think an important distinction should be made between legitimate guiding and the pony rides I often see being done at the lake -- there is a huge difference between the two.

I'd have no problem with a lone, experienced, and competent guide, with four or fewer clients hanging out inconspicuously on the East Rampart.

All too often, however, I see inexperienced and incompetent "guides" (often just glorified gym rats) with group numbers in the ten and greater range dropping Brinton's Crack and Boy Scout. Which wouldn't be so bad if there weren't fifteen loud, obnoxious, and poorly supervised 12-14 year olds in the group. There are much better places to take groups of this nature. I know this because I worked at Dairyland with Jay, and we took groups like this to far more appropriate spots, some of which he mentioned.

The odd thing was that the kids had a blast because they were isolated from the general public and as such could be left to just be kids without annoying anyone outside of the group leaders, and Jay and me.

If you're going to call yourself a guide, and use your "stewardship of the sport" as a justification, then you should be a good steward by knowing your way around your chosen venue so that you can peacefully exist with the rest of the climbing community.

Call me crazy for expecting guides to go out of their way to have as good of a relationship with the climbing community as possible and promote sustainable use of the resource by not taking large groups to already overcrowded areas. It just seems that if your livelihood depends on the sport maintaining popularity and your clients having a good time maybe you should be the leaders in these areas.

All of that said, if you're reading this and thinking, "Maybe I should make a change, but I don't know my way around the park well enough to do that." I'd be happy to show you some nice, quiet and out-of-the-way places in the park that are great for taking large groups.

Cheers,
James

8 AM? Early? Geez, when we had the pleasure of camping at the magnificent south shore campground waaay back in the 70's and early 80's, it was up at 5:30 and on the rocks by 6AM all summer long. Not just to beat the loud oversized groups of unsupervised kids, but to beat the humidity and heat of July and August. By noon we were off the cliffs, relaxing on the diving rocks along the tracks in the lake. Back up to climb again a few hours just before dusk. This also allowed us to miss most of the group chaos through the middle of the day. Sure miss that campground setting.

I would like to think that Oliver981 being an excellent guide and experienced climber surely is only taking groups around four in number. this thread is really about those who are bringing in the 10-15 person groups and having two guides shouting over the top of virtually unsupervised teenagers. this activity should be done at a gym.

As for the free for all, ? it really seems to be. I know that many wish to steer clear of "authority", but let's face it. "the man" knows we're there. he sees us walk with our gear and knows what we're doing. these guys aren't idiots and they are not oblivious. the park officials do leave the main paths. my understanding is that there is a don't ask don't tell policy that's fine and all, but the large out of control groups are the groups that have negative impact on all activities in the area and affect the parks numbers, these guys can make all climbers and all climbing seem bad to the officials and the public in general . it only takes a couple rude people to make all in the group seem bad. The "public" and likely "the man" can't always tell the difference between a badly guided group and just bad climbers.

there are many places where the parks people and the climbing community can exist nicely together and with full understanding of one anothers needs and goals. this is done in a lot of places and can help improve the experience of all involved. What prevents that here?

-lquid

One place the park people, hikers, and climbers blend together is that tight turn in the Balanced Rock trail at the base of Watermarks. The 'alternate' route that cuts across below that spot is gaining foot stability and might just become the real trail soon. Most climbers do their best to move aside and belay from off the steps or trail. But again, it's finding a large (=more than 6) group parked there, gear strewn all over that makes for a bad impression. 3 ropes on Watermarks wall alone and a bunch of noob's blocking off the trail just about ruinis any access or hiking. That is one area where guided groups should NOT be allowed at all.

There are a lot of various points in this thread and will try to answer to some of them.

First off, to make things clear, I am a guide for VE St Paul and I have both taught lessons and run groups at Devil's Lake. I agree with 'first come first serve' policy that(to my knowledge) exists in every single climbing area in the United States. If any of you think that bringing the Wisconsin government or park system into the equation is a good idea then I don't think you have a very good understanding of that government and park system. Once you ask the government to meddle on something seemingly reasonable like a maximum of 6 group policy, they will set a whole lot more rules you won't like.

Jay Knower explained Dairy Expedition's policy of not guiding East Rampart and I think there is merit to that and deserves thought but I reserve the right to do what I need to do to A) keep my clients safe and B)give them a good experience.

On the other hand, Jay's idea that guides are doing it for the "$$$$" is preposterous. Dude- you guided. Did you do it for all the sweet cash that was rolling in or because you wanted to share something special with people?

As far as large groups (10-15) of kids, those kids have just as much right to climb and be there as any of us. It is a priority of mine to teach them to respect nature and climbing ethics. I have ended groups early when they refuse to show that respect. Large group are the only economically feasible way to get children to experience climbing in nature and not in the artificial environment of the gym.

I think the major problem is that Devil's Lake is the main climbing spot for a combined metropolitan population of almost 10,000,000 people. I learned how to climb in the Red River Gorge and most days we'd only see a climber or two. It's annoying as hell when you come up to a climb you've been planning on doing and you see a horde of people but it's not their fault and it's not the guide's fault.

This thread started as a thread about ethics. Perhaps a clear ethic can be developed and agreed upon. I have to claim ignorance to whether there is a Devil's Lake climbing coalition. If not, there should be. Reasonable people (like many of the people who posted here) need to get together to make the park usable for everyone.

Russell Hobart

well stated

I do however think that the MN approach regarding Shovel Point should be mentioned as a very good piece of work on the part of the state. MN is not well known for an extremely lenient DNR, but they may be "reasonable".

call me an idealist if you wish.

russellHOBART wrote:On the other hand, Jay's idea that guides are doing it for the "$$$$" is preposterous. Dude- you guided. Did you do it for all the sweet cash that was rolling in or because you wanted to share something special with people?

Russell, I did it for the $$$$. Maybe that's why I don't guide anymore.

Later in your post you state that the only way to make guiding "economically feasible" is to bring out groups of 10 to 15. Isn't this another way of doing it for the $$$$? So in other words, if you weren't concerned about the money, then you wouldn't bring out such large groups?

I don't understand why any outdoor educator would want to take the group they're leading to an area known to be the most popular. If you want to create a better experience for your clients and a better teaching environment choose one of the other areas. They are just as good as the east bluff and when talking about beginner climbers there is no difference between an area such as the east bluff or a place such as birthday rocks, except that at the east bluff you are adding to the congestion. (Also the approach is easier = happier kids)If there is this one area that is obviously the most popular crag in the area why would one WANT to even take a group there? If you know other climbers frown on the practice then simply go to one of the other 40+ areas, simple.

In the boundary waters of Minnesota large groups are not allowed, no more than four canoes are permitted to even come together at portages. Most people who visit the boundary waters do so for the wilderness experience, this would certainly be ruined by a large unruly group of children. There are thousands of places to canoe and camp in the northwoods but nothing quite like the boundary waters and the Quetico solely because of the etiquette set there. We probably all climb for different reasons. Personally I enjoy the solitude of climbing in a peaceful outdoor setting. Quite honestly it is a bit like my church (would you bring your group of 30 boy scouts to the temple for a service?). I assume that many who have posted here feel similar to myself in that the actual climb is only part of the climbing experience and what can't be forgotten or undervalued is the tranquility of Devil's Lake and the wilderness experience. What climbers like myself are asking is to have the east rampart set aside for those who climb to escape the noise and distractions of everyday life. Large groups, especially those who don't understand climbing etiquette, can take away or even ruin the experience of climbers who are searching for solitude. So without questioning your motivation, your knowledge, or integrity climbers like myself are asking guides not to bring large groups to the east rampart out of respect for our experience.

I'm glad I found this prior to taking a group out. Here's an little test for the group of commenteers:

I am planning to take a group of 5-10 classmates out for a day of climbing and relaxing next monday, with friday as a rain day. Both I and another classmate have experience leading groups of beginners, though not at the lake. I specifically chose a weekday to avoid crowds, and I was already planning on avoiding the East Rampart. I was thinking Railroad Amp, with Birthday Rocks as a backup. Does anybody foresee a problem with this plan, or have any suggestions to avoid problems?

Thanks - Carey Dachik

PS - Eric, it's good to know you're still stirring things up. Look me up the next time you roll through town.