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Weight Loss & Periodization

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low.key.og Ferreira · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 0

Hey All. There is so much good info on this forum and I figured I would pick your brains for some more.

I follow a "degenerating periodization schedule" where I typically start off very militant and get more lax as I move into power endurance/redpointing phase. I typically climb into that phase until I am drained (which is now)then take a week off, get stoked, then jump back on the hangboard.

Over the past six months or so, I have gained some weight, while being a bit overweight already. I am curious if it would work to try to lose some of my flab while in the hangboard phase. I have heard that it is near impossible to lose fat while you are in a strength phase, but I am curious if anyone has experience with this. I typically run 3x a week while in the hanging phase, but always keep it really easy. Now, I am thinking I will try to do a long run each week, an intense run and a mellow run.

Will I die if I try to get lean and strong at the same time?

For a litle background on myself: I am 5'10, 170, 24 BMI. I used to race bicycles full time and was down to 150 (and super unhealthy.) I think my body is happiest around 160 and I really just have a little fat to lose around my waist and chest...my legs are slowly decreasing in size/weight from the cycling.

Thanks for reading all that and I appreciate any help!

Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295

I think it is unlikely that you will die, but who knows. I suppose you might get struck by lightning while out on a run or something. Hope not.

Anywaaay...You mention two things: "hangboard phase", and "Strength phase". I think it would help to be very clear on what you mean by those terms. I assume you mean you are using a hangboard for hypertrophy training of the forearm muscles only (increasing the size of the muscle fibers in your forearm).

The reason I ask is that I believe the conventional wisdom that you should be "fat" when your're in a strength phase is based on the idea that you need extra mass to feed the growth in your muscles. If you are only targeting your relatively very small forearm muscles in your "strength phase", I would GUESS that having lots of extra fat hanging around is not as critical as it would be if you were looking for hypertrophy of larger muscle groups like the legs & back.

So, if you do lots of pull-ups during this phase, in the hopes that your back will explode a la Lou Ferigno, it would probably be better to avoid a cardio-based weight loss program in the short term. Personally, I don't look for hypertrophy of my back/upper arms. I think I have all of the mass that I need in those areas, so I'm just looking to maintain those muscle groups (remember we're really interested in a favorable strength to weight ratio).

If I were you, I would continue trying to lose the extra weight. When I'm hangboarding, I hangboard every 3rd day, so if I were in your spot I would run/cycle/swim on the the other 2 days. The day after the HB workout would be my more intense cardio day. Ideally you would hit your goal weight at the same time you hit your climbing peak.

Clyde · · Eldo Campground, Boulder CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 5

Read this 2 part article. Ignore that he's talking about weight lifting since both that and climbing are just different forms of resistance training. The principles of losing fat while maintaining strength are the same. Also consider doing intervals on one of your running days, not essential though.

bodyrecomposition.com/train…

Sam Lightner, Jr. · · Lander, WY · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,732

I'd train heavy and then loose the weight. Actually, I'd train fat and then keep the weight, but if I had will power I'd loose it.

low.key.og Ferreira · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 0

Awesome guys..that all makes sense and is very helpful.

Mono-you assumed correctly...I guess what I was trying to say was that my "strength phase" is the phase which I use the hangboard for hypertrophy..

I don't do pullups...I dont know if I can do a pullup. I will try to pay close attention to my diet and up the cardio during that phase. Thanks a ton!

Aerili · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 1,875

Hi Daniel,

It is true that in the mainstream scope of things, getting lean and adding mass simultaneously is quite difficult--unless you stick a needle in your ass regularly.

I agree with Monomaniac, however, in that if your "strength" phase is primarily about increasing your local anaerobic threshold in your forearms, you aren't going to need all these additional calories to feed your burgeoning hand and wrist flexors. Edited to add: strength and hypertrophy phases are not the same, btw! Really, truly, they are different animals.

I would say your long, easy runs are not really helping you that much in the weight loss department. First, I would look into doing different things altogether if possible (provide a new stimulus to your body) and add in doing more intense bursts of stuff. For instance, I've been surprised how much calorie-burning boost I've gotten out of running ladder drills, football-style warm-up sprints, cone hopping, medicine ball "throwing and chasing", medicine ball slams, and plyometric hops and bounds in the last six months. And none of these are "traditional" cardio activities.

Lastly, I do not think at 5'10" and 170 you are remotely overweight. Also, considering you're a climber, your BMI # means little to me cause it tells me nothing about your body composition.

Mike Anderson · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Nov 2004 · Points: 3,265

Aerili already beat me to it, but if you think you're overweight, then I'm a f@&$-ing fatass! I'm 5'8 (on a good day) and I fluctuate between 160 and 165. I do have very sexy legs, though, unlike most male climbers with their sickly, chicken legs.

I concur with the interval-style cardio for losing weight. Steady state cardio merely trains your body to use energy more efficiently, which is the opposite of what you want. You want to waste energy like a Texas-born F-dude on a wakeboarding vacation.

Aerili, I would be very interested to learn more of the specifics of the "ladder drills" and such that you described. Care to share?

low.key.og Ferreira · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 0

Aerili: Thanks for the pointers. I just dropped my BMI in there because I recently found out what it is. I realize now that it doesnt mean much...I am very interested in the more intense runs though. I guess it was just the cyclist in me that was saying to go long.

If I pay attention to what I am eating I am typically consuming about 2200-2500 calories a day that are pretty balanced.

Thanks again for all the tips everyone...i would certainly appreciate more pointers and interval excersize perscriptions as well.

Thanks!

Rob Kepley · · Westminster, CO · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,005

I've been doing circuit type workouts since this past winter and have seen good results. I know I could push myself a little harder but I'm kinda lazy in that respect. I now have to cinch my belt up one more hole which I haven't done in probably 10 years.

These days I will start with jumping rope, then deadlifts, push-ups and finally tossing a 10lb medicine ball at the wall really hard until my heart rate is really going. I keep moving steady from each excercise and do 4 rounds these days. When I first started I could barely do 4 but now it's pretty easy. I'll usually finish off with some ab work. I really like this style because you can mix it up and never get bored.

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

I agree with Sam, it is a waste to loose weight during your strength phase...that is your resistance dude. Trimming down right before your peak will do wonders for your strength to weight.

I've also found that a day on the Diamond usually evaporates any trace of fat I happen to be carrying.

Aerili · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 1,875
Mike Anderson wrote:I do have very sexy legs, though, unlike most male climbers with their sickly, chicken legs.
Hear, hear!

Mike Anderson wrote:Aerili, I would be very interested to learn more of the specifics of the "ladder drills" and such that you described. Care to share?
First you have to have a ladder. They are a bit expensive, depending on the length desired and whether you want a single or double ladder. I guess you could make your own, but I don't think it would be as good. They seem to run around $120+ through companies like Perform Better, etc. although I am sure there are better deals to be had.

I do mostly the kind of drills I would put a mainstream athlete through for agility and speed training. There are umpteen number of footwork patterns one could come up with; I often try to make up new and more complex patterns for myself, run them backward, and/or add in twisting hops, etc. Kind of hard to describe--more of a show-it-now-do-it exercise.

Doug, I don't focus on "rep" numbers with ladders--rather fatigue and breakdown in performance is a better indicator. Although I don't think what you're calling ladder drills is the same as what I'm referring to. You seem to have a list of just a bunch of various different kind of exercises targeting all different kinds of strength and endurance all over the body that have nothing to do with actual ladder drills.

I like Mountain Athlete but they are not marketing anything that could be considered "new." Great to point it out for people who don't know about it, though.

Daniel wrote:My main issue with my diet is that I sometimes, and more frequently lately, simply eat too much in one sitting. It is something I really have to work on.
I would say this is a huge part in cutting weight. Cutting the calories really makes a difference, especially when you get closer and closer to your target (as it takes more and more effort to get a smaller and smaller change when you are at normal weight and body fat levels).
Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0
Ian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 15
Daniel wrote:I used to race bicycles full time and was down to 150 (and super unhealthy.)
What's wrong with being 5'10 and 150? I'm 5'11 and at around 145 right now and I'm climbing a full grade harder, while running and riding faster as well. I was 15-20lbs heavier a few months ago and decided to cut meat out of my diet, but not entirely so not to get sick. My weight dropped with similar levels of activities.
Shawn Mitchell · · Broomfield · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 250

That explains it! I just thought that guy in your avatar photo had his upper molars removed. :)

Ian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 15

That picture was taken before I lost weight!

LeeAB Brinckerhoff · · Austin, TX · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 10,288
Daniel wrote:I guess it was just the cyclist in me that was saying to go long.
In cycling the go long and steady is only really to build base fitness. If you read up on any current cycling training everything is based on interval training once you've built a good base, your body needs to be able to put up with the real training before you start.
Mike Anderson wrote:I do have very sexy legs, though
The brothers Anderson's calves look as though they would taste great slow roasted on a spit, YUM.

Aerili wrote:First you have to have a ladder. They are a bit expensive.... They seem to run around $120+ through companies like Perform Better, etc. although I am sure there are better deals to be had.I do mostly the kind of drills I would put a mainstream athlete through for agility and speed training. There are umpteen number of footwork patterns one could come up with; I often try to make up new and more complex patterns for myself, run them backward, and/or add in twisting hops, etc. Kind of hard to describe--more of a show-it-now-do-it exercise
I'm just guessing that this is not a typical ladder that one would climb up or else these excersises seem as though they could be potentially very dangerous.
JLP wrote:Your weight is mostly due to the food you eat, not how much you exercise. I know many who are "fit and fat". The easiest and best way to loose weight is to cut the crap food out of your diet. Post your exact food intake for 2-3 days and see what the thinner people here think of it.
I was always under the impression your weight was a combination of several things, one of which is what you eat (as in the break down of different typs of fats, carbs and protines). How much fuel you burn is another factor as well which is influenced but how much you excersice as well as ones resting metabolic rate. Also just because someone is thin does not mean that they know a thing about eating well. Some might, while others just could never put on weight even with a gun to their heads.
Mike Anderson · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Nov 2004 · Points: 3,265
LeeAB wrote: The brothers Anderson's calves look as though they would taste great slow roasted on a spit, YUM.
Remind me never to attempt a mid-winter crossing of the Sierra Nevada with you.
low.key.og Ferreira · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 0

Lee- Im pretty familiar with current cycling training trends.I guess it was vague when I said "used to race"..I stopped racing full time about 18 months ago and was at the CAT-1 level for 4 years before that...starting at age 18. I was a full time 'cross racer and also did much of the road season at a very high level. We always use the long steady time to build a base, but also to shed unwanted weight, as part of gaining that base fitness. Which is why when I think of running to lose some fat, I associate that with a 6-8hr tempo ride...I am coming to understand though that I was riding to become faster...but I am not running to become a better runner, therefore my approach needs to be different.

I should also note that when I said I was 150 and unhealthy...its because I was leading a very unhealthy lifestyle, not because that weight/height is inherently bad. I was basically accidentally starving myself all season long (oct-feb) and just wasn't eating right..or enough. I believe though that it is possible for me to weigh that much and be healthy...I just wasn't.

Here is a grand total of what I ate yesterday:
1 English muffin with peanut butter and strawberries
2 Apples
2 Bananas
1 Nectarine
1 Protein bar...I think it was a Zone bar...
1 handful of pumpkin seeds
1 Cup of wasabi trail mix
2 Bowls of cereal
1/2 mango
2 8oz Kombucha drinks
1 8oz whey protein drink...from MRM

This is pretty standard for my workdays.

I started with the running intervals and have felt pretty good thus far. I have done 3 runs; 2 with shorter intervals (2 min on, 1 min off...8x) and 1 with longer, less intense intervals (10 min on, 2.5 min off...3x)

I prefer the shorter intervals and have a nearby track which makes it pretty easy to run uninterrupted.

I really appreciate the help everyone...this has been very encouraging!!

Evan S · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 510

Losing weight while staying healthy is simple. Stop eating as many carbs as possible, eat one gram of protein per pound of body weight a day (you'll need powders, impossible [or sickening] on solid food alone, but don't use whey, it is highly insulinemic and will shut off your GH curve after a workout), and DO NOT EAT WITHIN 4 HOURS BEFORE YOU GO TO BED. It's all about GH, low carb and sugar with infrequent large meals=low insulin=high GH=no body fat, lots of muscle, quick recovery, and ketogenic mind state. Salad, steak, and pea protein, that's the ticket.

LeeAB Brinckerhoff · · Austin, TX · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 10,288
Mike Anderson wrote: Remind me never to attempt a mid-winter crossing of the Sierra Nevada with you.
Not to worry, I'm not into that cold winter stuff that involves snow and ice, I prefer the small rocks when its cold.
low.key.og Ferreira · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 0

Hey Everyone..just a quick update. Again, I thank you all for the advice, it was super helpful.

I havent been on a run in about a week...It was getting very hard on my knees and I just wasn't into flogging myself. I started to ride my bike again and that has been really good. It really seems like I drop fat FAST when I start to ride my bike.

I have only lost a few pounds but I feel much better and look much leaner. The main thing I have been focusing on is not overeating. I have been eating small meals every ~3 hours and overeating has only been an issue once, and I handled it pretty well.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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