Cochise Route Chopped ???

Eric Rhicard wrote:It's okay Dan, I don't care what they say about me or Geir!

Eric, you're one of the funniest people I know. You've got to stop making me laugh out loud when I'm supposed to be working. :)

Eric, judging by your response, it sounds like this is pretty personal for you (not that I needed that post to figure that out).

Have you considered talking to Scott? I realize there is a long and colorful history between you two that I don't know or care to know the details of but a conversation along the lines of a mutual "hey dude, I fucked up" is a much better way to handle this.

It seems to me that nobody posting here has any facts or proof of anything. Just a lot of assumptions. It would be great if somebody who actually had some first-hand knowledge or facts could interject them here.

It would also be great if the smear campaign could stop, and we could just discuss the issue at hand. Then this thread won't need to be deleted.

Actually it was me. But in my defense, I free soloed to the top of End Pinnacle using a variety of variations of lots of routes and taking the hardest line. Then, I down-climbed headfirst and pulled the bolts with my teeth, and since I was nude free-soloing, I was forced to swallow all the hardware. Sorry I can't return them. But since I'm against bolt chopping in general, I'll be rebolting this new harder line (I'm suggesting 16a/b) by pounding them in with my fists and forehead.
I'm ready to jaw wrestle anyone that has anything to say about this. Look for me at the crag.

Look,no need to get all worked up at this time. Just wait till the area opens back up and assess the damages and if it was a worthy variation reinstall the bolts and the climbing community is aware of the chopper and keep an eye on the area. And if he is removing bolts with his teeth, just remove his teeth with with a bat!!
Geir your topos are great keep up the hard work, all but the bone heads out there support you and your effort!!

My bad, I mean we all support Too Fast !!

This is exactly how real wars with guns, bombs and death begin.

1. Alleged actions
2. Accusations
3. Deep seated animosity and hatred
4. Poor factual information
5. Communication breakdown
6. Forming of alliances
7. Threats and posturing

No one is going to win from this. In fact we all lose, be it community, friends, or even access. There are no easy answers, but the above methods certainly don't help.

We really need to approach this in a mature and responsible manner - right now it's more like rumors of an after school fight. No one really knows exactly what is going on, but the scent of blood is in the air and we are beginning to hear the chants of "fight", "fight". Let's sort this out before it comes to blows or someone calls the principle.

You're exactly right Eric! I was just referring to a crazy free soloing reptile :)

Well, it's been more than 20 years since I've been on the End Pinnacle, so it's all new to me. Sidestepping the chopping question, about which little seems to be confirmed, I'd like to address the "unknown" route in purple on the posted topo geir.com/end%20pinnacle%20w…

Given that its somewhat sandwiched in next to the venerable Poetry in Motion (which had bolts added later by the FA to make it "safer") and the, erm, generous bolting, I'd like to humbly propose a name:

Poultry in Motion

Hey James, I suggest that Scott Ayers put all of this to rest by telling the climbing community what he did or didn't do on End Pinnacle. I am sure it is hard being an admin. but hey the solution is simple. Have Scott step up and publicly deny or take responsibility for his actions.

off white wrote:Well, it's been more than 20 years since I've been on the End Pinnacle, so it's all new to me. Sidestepping the chopping question, about which little seems to be confirmed, I'd like to address the "unknown" route in purple on the posted topo geir.com/end pinnacle w.pdf Given that its somewhat sandwiched in next to the venerable Poetry in Motion (which had bolts added later by the FA to make it "safer") and the, erm, generous bolting, I'd like to humbly propose a name: Poultry in Motion

Just a quick note on this: Anyone who has drawn topos knows that there are limits to rendering 3D terrain on to 2D topos. This can have the effect of making routes look closer together than they actually are. Please don't make a judgment on the proximity of the two routes based on my topo alone, it would be much better to climb the two routes and see it in person.

I climbed poetry before doing the bolted route to its left, and although there were times when I noticed the bolts to the left and felt a bit crowded, the majority of the time they were out of view because of terrain features.

By the way, the name "Poultry in Motion" has already been taken by another southern Arizona route. :)

Eric R wrote:This is exactly how real wars with guns, bombs and death begin. 1. Alleged actions 2. Accusations 3. Deep seated animosity and hatred 4. Poor factual information 5. Communication breakdown 6. Forming of alliances 7. Threats and posturing No one is going to win from this. In fact we all lose, be it community, friends, or even access. There are no easy answers, but the above methods certainly don't help. We really need to approach this in a mature and responsible manner - right now it's more like rumors of an after school fight. No one really knows exactly what is going on, but the scent of blood is in the air and we are beginning to hear the chants of "fight", "fight". Let's sort this out before it comes to blows or someone calls the principle.

Don't forget:
8. Oil
9. Religion (killing in the name of god...any god. That's the one I like most.)

I am glad to see that things have changed in Arizona since I lived there (~2003). I think we could have had this same conversation ten years ago except we did not have a message board to post our comments. We were forced to talk behind peoples backs at Rocks and Ropes.

The other amazing feature of message boards is that land managers can now monitor climbers activities from the seat of their comfy desk. If I worked for a government agency whose job it was to manage the land, I would have no problem coming to the conclusion from these post on MP that activities by climbers are putting Cochise in Jeopardy and should be regulated (ie. banned)

I also think EFR is a bulldog. That man can crimp like a MoFo.

Todd G

James DeRoussel wrote:It seems to me that nobody posting here has any facts or proof of anything. Just a lot of assumptions. It would be great if somebody who actually had some first-hand knowledge or facts could interject them here. It would also be great if the smear campaign could stop, and we could just discuss the issue at hand. Then this thread won't need to be deleted.

Exactly! Well said James.

I wouldn't like to lose the friendship of either of the parties involved so I won't join in any demonizing of anyone.

My personal OPINION is that Eric's line is an awesome-looking line (though probably way too hard for me to climb presently without at best hanging on every bolt). When I was climbing Endgame a few months ago, the thought that it might be a "crowding" of or takeaway from Endgame never even crossed my mind. (ie I don't believe it is). That's just my opinion, please refrain from jumping all over me with "you're not an FA, you haven't been living in Tucson for the last 200 years, etc, etc" bullshit

Eric Rhicard wrote:Hey James, I suggest that Scott Ayers put all of this to rest by telling the climbing community what he did or didn't do on End Pinnacle. Have Scott step up and publicly deny or take responsibility for his actions.

I completely agree.

Two men, who I consider brothers, are involved in a fight. They are both good men, men with extraordinarily strong wills. Each hates the other. Neither gives up. There is no reconciliation—ever.

They have done most of the first ascents in the area. They have provided the community with untold hours of climbing pleasure. Both are a pleasure to climb with. The community owes both a debt of gratitude.

Yet (ironically) their fight (and this post) threaten access to the very routes they put up.

I know for a fact Coronado land managers read these posts.

I am deeply troubled by them.
I am troubled by the lessons they teach.
I am troubled by the insights they provide.

Since these men put up the routes, I suppose it is fitting if they also contribute to having them taken away.

I wish it could be otherwise.

Thanks, Scott.

I hope that any land managers reading this would draw the conclusion that the (unconfirmed) act described in the OP was not conducted with the knowledge or approval of the larger community. When the area is open again, we can examine it and address what (if anything) has been done.

EDIT: I have thought a lot about this over the past week. Having climbed both of the variations on Endgame and enjoying them (particularly the upper one), I would be in favor of replacing them if they have been removed. I would suggest one change, however, to the bottom variation. Since the last bolt on the bottom variation lies on Poetry in Motion, would it be OK to leave it out? The terrain in this area is easy enough to warrant skipping the bolt, and in the unlikely event of a fall the leader would still have no chance of groundfall. Eric, you're the FA on the variation, do you think this makes sense? Any other opinions on this?

So Jimbo,
Most us know who did the dirty deed so why not spill the beans and tell the community?
Peter

I don't hate Scott.

I actually have a good deal of respect for many things Scott has done when it comes to new route development. He is high energy and fun to hang out with. A day of climbing with Scott will usually be full value. He has a good sense of humor and he is friendly to everyone.

There is an aspect of Scott I don't like and neither do you. Unfortunately for Scott every time I find examples of it I let him know.

If Scott quits telling me and everyone else what we can and cannot do and leaves others bolts and anchors alone I can assure you he will not hear from me again.