Bolting the Gunks!

One thought on pinning vs. chipping. Pins are for protection from a fall on a particular climb. Yes they modify the rock and clean climbing should be used, but they are still climbing the climb at it's level. Even if it's aiding across a blank section.

Chipping is manufacturing a climb. Creating holds that don't exist, not protecting a fall.

I really don't agree or disagree with bolts, pitons or whatever..but chipping is just a silly exercise. Glue some holds on then....

• correction - I overlooked aiding on pitons, so my above statement isn't completely accurate. BUT, to aid climbers credit they do put themselves in some sketchy places hooking.

I'm a new recruit to the "war", but is it ethics of an area, or just the ethics overall sporto vs. trado?

i.e. - if someone bolts a place that has historically been all trad = bad? If someone bolts a crack in some obscure area where noone hardly climbs or knows about = good/o.k./???

It's almost not even clear anymore!! Originally the post was about bolting trad climbs, but seemingly cross threaded to the Sky Pilot add a bolt thread...and now...

we are back at the old age squabble between traddies and sporties.

Coeus wrote: This to me is chipping.

is this better or worse than bolting? someone could put in a bolt ladder there and save the seam. or it could just not get climbed at all, which isn't that unreasonable.

Scott McMahon wrote:As far as it being a sport climbing area, does that mean since Pawtuckaway is mainly a bouldering area, the bouldering ethics apply to the trad climbs there?

does that really make sense, this isnt trying to bash you but i dont see how that could even be possible...

someone said pitons leave less damage than a bolt...how so? pitons could could out and have to be put back in making more damage...

Scott McMahon wrote:Chipping is manufacturing a climb. Creating holds that don't exist,

So is pinning! That's my point. Maybe pinning was not originally intending to create holds, but the result is the same.

matthewWallace wrote: i agree there are other climbs but in rumney a sport climbing area many things that were lead on skecthy gear have since been bolted for safety. i know that i not going to find many people on my side in this particular forum but its just opinion also, greoffrey, is a ground fall safe enough for you???

My Pawtuckaway comment was in response to rumney being a sport climbing area with bolted trad climbs. I could have read it wrong but it seemed to say that since Rumney is a sport area, sport ethics should apply? Hence my Pawtuckaway is a bouldering area, why shouldn't the ethics transfer over to the trad climbs. My statement intentionally didn't make sense in that respect.

Again, maybe I read it wrong, but what the predominate climbs in the area are should have absolutely no bearing on if a route should be bolted or not. It could be the ONLY trad climb in Rumney, but it shouldn't be bolted.

John,

I'm glad we can disagree (and/or agree) cordially. Good for you for avoiding the use of pins. I'm sure that wasn't always an easy thing to do.

johnL wrote:A pin used to protect a route that is otherwise unprotectable is fine with me. No-one is putting that pin in there to carve spots for the fingers to fit. They were putting the pin in there because nothing else worked. The end result is the same though, a route that people changed.

So, is this different than a bolt used to protect a route that is otherwise unprotectable? I would say no, but I guess the debate really hinges on one's definition of "unprotectable". Does the pro have to be good enough/frequent enough to keep you off the deck, keep you out of a pine box, keep you out of the hospital...?

even worse are those darn boulderers turning trad lines into boulder problems.

or boulderers making free solos out of lines that should be bolted!
LOL!! :o)

Monomaniac wrote:Are you actually saying that trad and/or aid and/or mixed climbers aren't currently using pitons? There are plenty of valid arguments in favor of trad climbing, but "it doesn't damage the rock" is not one of them.

Are trad and aid the same thing to you? They are as closely related as trad and sport. All three are the same things to a non climber. But, to an experienced climber they are all different disciplines. IMHO, trad is the least impact. Aid and sport... well.

Scott McMahon wrote:It's almost not even clear anymore!! Originally the post was about bolting trad climbs, but seemingly cross threaded to the Sky Pilot add a bolt thread...and now... we are back at the old age squabble between traddies and sporties.

I think you are catching on. Kind of a lame thread. Just hijacking another tread but doing it somewhere else. Kinda boring already. Bolts, no bolts, sport, trad, safe, dangerous, etc, bla, bla, bla.

What we really need is a few jackasses from Wyoming to talk some shit and stir the pot or a fist fight between Tony and Bob. Now we got a thread.

Scott McMahon wrote:or boulderers making free solos out of lines that should be bolted! LOL!! :o)

that something we can agree on a forty five foot boulder problem is actually a free solo hate to break it to all the boulderers

Greg D wrote: I think you are catching on. Kind of a lame thread. Just hijacking another tread but doing it somewhere else. Kinda boring already. Bolts, no bolts, sport, trad, safe, dangerous, etc, bla, bla, bla. What we really need is a few jackasses from Wyoming to talk some shit and stir the pot or a fist fight between Tony and Bob. Now we got a thread.

While the second half of the above quote is an unneeded confrontational attack(=lame)- I agree with the first half. Why debate till we are blue in the face...!?!?!

The real bottom line is this- WE ARE ALL CLIMBERS, no matter what type we are doing. The non-climbing community doesnt segregate- nor should we. If we could all be one, as we ARE, our impact, image and perception to those that dont climb- as well as each other- would be much more positive. Why debate within the ranks people???

So- just be a climber. Make good choices whatever type you do, represent the climbing community and sport well, be an ambassador and have fun. Climb hard, safe and smart . Seems simple to me..... :)

Now- who can lend me some pitons and a hammer....??

I just think all climbs should have a single length of chain running and secured to the entire climb so you can clip in every inch if you wish. Bolt the chain to the rock in various places so that it follows the contour of the climb itself. Not only would it prevent accidents it can also be used to grab or pull past hard sections. This is the best plan and I think all climbing areas should move to this style in the future.

What!!

No, never put a single bolt in the Gunks. Thats like saying you want to go bolt a bunch of routes at Lumpy Ridge on the book mark, or Sundance Buttress!!

Are you crazy even anchors have no business being bolted in the Gunks, unless absolutely necessary. I am appaled that I even saw this thread...!!!

What is this sport coming too?

bbrock wrote:I just think all climbs should have a single length of chain running and secured to the entire climb so you can clip in every inch if you wish. Bolt the chain to the rock in various places so that it follows the contour of the climb itself. Not only would it prevent accidents it can also be used to grab or pull past hard sections. This is the best plan and I think all climbing areas should move to this style in the future.

...and install metal rungs when the climbing gets too hard:



The Euros are way ahead of us here!

The world of climbing is quite diverse, and it's all good.

Better to be catholic than parochial in one's views...about climbing and about life.

Shane Neal wrote: While the second half of the above quote is an unneeded confrontational attack(=lame)- I agree with the first half.

Wow. Using the word "lame" equates to "confrontational attack". I'm speechless.

Ron Olsen wrote: .The Euros are way ahead of us here! The world of climbing is quite diverse, and it's all good.

Terribly wrong...

Here is the thing that I think is crazy, just because a bolt is there does NOT mean you have to use it. If a crack were bolted, then couldn't a climber of either discipline climb it? NO, I'm not saying every trad climb should be bolted, not even close. I'm just saying that I know people who when learning to trad climb coming from sport who have never jammed a foot or a hand (yes, i know, they obviously don't have much experience) Anyway, I'm just saying, if I'm clean climbing a crack and I come to a bolt, I don't bust out a draw and clip it, I keep doing what I started out to.

Honestly, IMHO, the most unsightly thing climbers do is use f'in white chalk on every hand hold. Somebody talked about bolting up bright colored holds onto the rock, what is the difference between that and bright white chalk marking every hold you should use on a climb??? Yeah yeah, its obviously not *permanent* but damn close enough in my opinion. Bolted or not, climb it the way you choose. And quit crying because some bolts "brought the climbing down to your [or someone else's] level".... I really just don't get it do i?