Boulder Canyon guidebook — seeking action photos

Wolverine Publishing is working on a new color comprehensive Boulder Canyon guidebook, written by Bob D'Antonio. I'm looking for good color action climbing shots to go in the book. If you have good action shots and would like to submit them for consideration, contact me Dave Pegg, dave@wolverinepublishing.com. We'd love to see your shots.

The shots must be available as digital format of at least 5 megapixels (we can't run smaller images) or as slides. You may email small files for consideration -- but you must have the big original files available for us to run your shot in the book.

As well as getting images of you or your buddies in the new guide, all photographers will get a free exclusive advance copy of the book, about 6 weeks before anyone else will have it. We'll also pony up $200 if your shot is chosen for the cover.

You can view and download free sample pages from the book (Plotinus Wall) on the homepage at wolverinepublishing.com

Best
Dave Pegg

The book is looking good.

I have a ton of pictures on my computer of climbing BC.
A few of them are on my blog.
www.mytb.org/jrenee

When's the deadline for the photos?

ScottieB wrote:When's the deadline for the photos?

March 20.

Joni Renee wrote:I have a ton of pictures on my computer of climbing BC. A few of them are on my blog. www.mytb.org/jrenee

Joni, what's your email?

Dave

Will the guide contain any of Boulder Canyon's bouldering. It seems like a shame to leave out the Freedom Boulder in an overview of the Plotinus Wall.

Dave Pegg wrote:As well as getting images of you or your buddies in the new guide, all photographers will get a free exclusive advance copy of the book, about 6 weeks before anyone else will have it. We'll also pony up $200 if your shot is chosen for the cover.

So you don't pay for images (unless they are the cover)? You just want them for free?

Andy Librande wrote: So you don't pay for images (unless they are the cover)? You just want them for free?

.

You get the book for free and some placment. NOt a bad idea for a climber or photog up and coming.

Andy Librande wrote: So you don't pay for images (unless they are the cover)? You just want them for free?

Well, once I take a photo, I enjoy it and I'm not using it anyway, so someone else can.
If they pay for photos, the price will get wrapped into the price of the book, or you get more adds inside, or cheaper printing. So what's the diff?
None to me. You'll see my photos in several upcoming books, but I didn't ask for anything for them- I offerered them to the authors.

Giving photos away for free creates a funky paradox for an “up and coming” adventure photographer.
You gain exposure today while at the same time undercutting the very ground that you hoped to walk on tomorrow. In the end, you reinforce the idea that photos have little to no value and should be free. As long as someone is willing to give photos away for free, making a living as an adventure photographer (that dream that you’re hoping to achieve by getting published) becomes near impossible. All else equal, it’s hard to blame publishers for choosing a free photo over a photo that they have to pay for. Additionally, due to the fact that climbing products (especially guidebooks for local areas) are mostly niche products, it may not be profitable for publishers to pay for photography. That’s the stark reality of adventure photography. The only way out is to find a way to create value in your photography that cannot be replicated by those who give their photos away for free.

To say that charging for photos will inevitably increase the price of the end product is presumptuous. Every product has an optimal price point where the publisher attempts to maximize profits. This can be achieved through more sales at a lower price or fewer sales at a higher price. You might also sell more books by including better photos (which would likely cost more).

ScottieB wrote:Giving photos away for free creates a funky paradox for an “up and coming” adventure photographer.

So are you suggesting I should not have or should not exercise my right to give my photos away for free? Or that the publisher or author has no right to accept them? Am I allowed to give them to my climbing partner when he writes a book? (This did just happen).

That the up and coming photographer has some primary entitlement to expect to sell something that someone else will give away for free?

If the costlier product is that much better, and the market wants their product, someone will pay for it.

Should I refuse to do photoshoots for R&I mag or a book, so that some up and coming model who is better looking can charge for that? Can I give away a few home brews? Or am I wrecking a business opportunity for a new mcro-brewer that might offer a superior product?

ScottieB wrote: To say that charging for photos will inevitably increase the price of the end product is presumptuous. Every product has an optimal price point where the publisher attempts to maximize profits. This can be achieved through more sales at a lower price or fewer sales at a higher price. You might also sell more books by including better photos (which would likely cost more).

Maybe you should reconsider either your arguement, or just how much I might know about that.
Do some simple math. Count the # of photos in a guide (200?), then multiply by whatever you think that they should pay per photo ($50?), then divide by the number of books you think that they print(1000?). You might suddenly find that the 'markup' in the photos per book ($10?) is greater than either the markup from the publisher or profit to the author, which might be about $10 in total, between the two of them.
But what would I know, right?

The point of my post was not to suggest what you should or should not have done. If you want to support a friend that has a new book out, that's fine. Likewise, if you want to support independent adventure photographers, that's also fine. It's your choice. All I'm saying is that what you do affects others in the industry. I don't remember saying anything about entitlement. I see no entitlement to be had. It's business.

You said: "If the costlier product is that much better, and the market wants their product, someone will pay for it."

What I'm trying to convey is that if you pay more for better photos, and this causes you to sell more books, the marginal increase in sales may more than offset the cost of paying for the photos. Additionally, if you sell more books, you may be able to sell them at a lower price (economies of scale). What happens in reality depends on alot of other factors (price elasticity, etc.).

It may very well be true that it is not worth it for publishers to pay for photos. I said this in my original post. What I'm saying is that paying for the photos does not necessarily HAVE to drive up the price of the books. I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that you know nothing of the subject. You very well may know alot. I hope that this helps clarify where I'm coming from.

Tony Bubb wrote: Maybe you should reconsider either your arguement, or just how much I might know about that. Do some simple math. Count the # of photos in a guide (200?) . . .

What guidebook has 200 photos of random climber shots (as opposed photos of routes that make up the bulk of the guide book)?
That would be like saying: "I'm coming out with a guide book for Boulder Canyon--if anyone has a bunch of topos, route descritpions, photos of routes, and relevant funny anecdotes and history, send them to me."
I kind of got the impression these photos were just going to "round out" the book, not BE the book.

ScottieB wrote: I hope that this helps clarify where I'm coming from.

Actually, it does, thanks.

Some of what I said is a "taken to a logical extension..." arguement as well and is not intended to say that "you said such and such."
It's a question of where to draw the line for me...

I'm a free market kind of guy- which is to say if someone asks for photos for free and nobody will give them good photos for free, then the laugh is on them. If on the other hand people are just proud to share their work, that's another matter.

ScottieB wrote: What I'm trying to convey is that if you pay more for better photos, and this causes you to sell more books, the marginal increase in sales may more than offset the cost of paying for the photos. Additionally, if you sell more books, you may be able to sell them at a lower price (economies of scale). What happens in reality depends on alot of other factors (price elasticity, etc.).

If you print so many, as has been suggested, and the 'economy of scale' think then the publisher knows the book will be gathering dust on the shelf while the new guide sells. Just happened in Clear Creek, just happened at Table, might be happening with the Flatirons and BoCan soon now. You can't just print "more" books for several reasons. Again, I don't seak for Dave or Wolverene, but I kinda know the gig...

pfwein wrote: What guidebook has 200 photos of random climber shots (as opposed photos of routes that make up the bulk of the guide book)? That would be like saying: "I'm coming out with a guide book for Boulder Canyon--if anyone has a bunch of topos, route descritpions, photos of routes, and relevant funny anecdotes and history, send them to me." I kind of got the impression these photos were just going to "round out" the book, not BE the book.

Well the table Mountain book has 33 Action shots in 112 pages.
How many pages do you estimate the previous Bocan book is 316 pages.
By extrapolating, that would be about 100 shots then, I suppose? How many should be purchased and for what price? It's a sliding scale- it they had to pay for photos abot what they charge for adds, well then... you can do the math however you like. Fronting the cash for a guide is a big deal because you might sell a case a week.

But no it is quite not like saying what you suggest. It would be more precisely like saying:
"If you have good action shots and would like to submit them for consideration, contact me...We'd love to see your shots."

In some cases, the author does most if not all of their own photography, which can more or less double the time it takes to produce a book. In others there is a photo budget. Other times they mostly come freom other climbers.

But regardless, for my own purpose, I'm happy to trade a few nice photos for a copy of a book I might otherwise pay $30-$35 for (I am guessing, as I know nothing about the financials of this book at all), especially if other people might enjoy the photos that are otherwise sitting in a dusty collection.

tony bubb you are in a dream world.

You giving away shots hurts people trying to make a living in the industry. There is an influx of ignorant minded photographers shooting themselves in the foot trying to get 'a name' through photo credit and exposure, undermining established photogs. What makes you think they will pay for your work when you balls up and go pro and there is another person doing exactly what you are doing now.

If you establish a continual routine of free flowing pics to business then a precedent is set that will push the high end pros away from the sport. Which inevitably results in overall lower quality images and therefore a worse representation of the sport that you love. And essentially makes others money DIRECTLY OFF YOUR BACK.

You are giving away your time, effort, skill, camera gear wear and tear to contribute to a business that is using your work for nothing, and gaining financially from it.

What do they give you? Nothing but a nice rub on the old ego. Feels good?

Yes, help your friends out. Yes, help anyone out you want. Circumstances make the exceptions easy.

If you dont value your work then who will?

kgrstatus wrote:tony bubb you are in a dream world. You giving away shots hurts people trying to make a living in the industry. There is an influx of ignorant minded photographers shooting themselves in the foot trying to get 'a name' through photo credit and exposure, undermining established photogs. What makes you think they will pay for your work when you balls up and go pro and there is another person doing exactly what you are doing now. If you establish a continual routine of free flowing pics to business then a precedent is set that will push the high end pros away from the sport. Which inevitably results in overall lower quality images and therefore a worse representation of the sport that you love. And essentially makes others money DIRECTLY OFF YOUR BACK. You are giving away your time, effort, skill, camera gear wear and tear to contribute to a business that is using your work for nothing, and gaining financially from it. What do they give you? Nothing but a nice rub on the old ego. Feels good? Yes, help your friends out. Yes, help anyone out you want. Circumstances make the exceptions easy. If you dont value your work then who will?

By the by, people like you that register under a pseudo name for ONE day on MP, make one broad statement and scurry away are goofballs. Name one suffering shutterbug who isn't feeding their children because of Tony Bubb or a BoCan Guidebook. Can't wait to hear about it fruitcake!

The truth is that just about everybody in the adventures sports industry works and lives on the margin. The same skill sets could be applied elsewhere for far greater financial gains. You've got to do it for love of the game. Its nobody's duty support your dream nor should anyone pay for something they get for free. The key is to do what you do so well that people what to see it again and bring their friends. Eventually, there's money in that.

Hank Caylor wrote: By the by, people like you that register under a pseudo name for ONE day on MP, make one broad statement and scurry away are goofballs. Name one suffering shutterbug who isn't feeding their children because of Tony Bubb or a BoCan Guidebook. Can't wait to hear about it fruitcake!

Hahah! Hank, you are my hero.

Hank Caylor wrote: By the by, people like you that register under a pseudo name for ONE day on MP, make one broad statement and scurry away are goofballs. Name one suffering shutterbug who isn't feeding their children because of Tony Bubb or a BoCan Guidebook. Can't wait to hear about it fruitcake!

No scutter. Unaware it was compulsory to use real name, but to settle your little beef AKA Jonothan Paylor. I can name multiple that are suffering as a result of idiots giving away shit for free; In fact, the industry as a whole is.

I do not understand the logic of supporting something that is rinsing you to make money; using your talent with no gain to blatantly make them money. Understand if its helping someone out, but if they are a friend and make it then let the good times roll all round.

If you are on the other side of the fence, then please respond and argue away. Justification of living on margin is no excuse; that is one used by companies trying to exploit photogs.

Reason I replied to this after browsing this site for a few months?

I dont like seeing people get exploited, whether they know they are or not.