Are gyms/schools teaching the wrong belay technique?

I'm looking for feedback from experienced climbers/instructors on something I have been thinking about for some time now. I have two issues:

Issue 1: Basic belaying techique) I'm a long-time trad/sport climber who has been climbing in gyms since the beginning... I've noticed that most belayers, especially for toproping, use the "pull, match hands (above the belay device - near face level), pinch (the belay end), slide hand method. This appears to be the most often taught technique in gyms and classes for beginners, where, these days, most people learn to climb.

This seems OK to me for toprope, but I have concerns about its use for lead climbs, especially dicey routes where the time it takes for the belayer to react and pull his/her brake hand down into position can be critical for controlling the length of the fall. Another concern - especially for beginners - is momentary confusion over which hand needs to do what if a fall occurs when both hands are in the pinch position above the belay device.

I have seen a generally better variation taught where the braking hand always stays below the device. In other words, the hand pulling in or playing out rope above the belay device is momentarily brought down to somewhere above the knee level pinch the belay end and allow the braking hand to slide up. This greatly reduces the reaction time because the brake hand is never out of position, and eliminates the problem of confusion over which is the brake hand (either or both can do the job). So why isn't this universally taught to beginners in all gyms and classes?

Issue 2: Superior technique?) I started with in the dark ages of trad climbing with with dicey pro and hip belays (usually with a 'biner at the from of the waist to allow the brake hand to pull back against the thigh or hip for additional friction) and original stitch plates. So there was an increased emphasis on always being ready to catch a fall. I (and others I knew) usually would pull in/play out rope with one hand above, and merely slide the braking hand back into position after the rope position changed. You never took your brake hand off the rope, you only had to slightly loosen your grip (forming a tunnel with your hand around the rope) and the weight of the rope helds it in position while you slid your hand. In this way, you avoided ever taking your braking hand out of position.

I still prefer this method (which I use with an ATC) because it's highly efficient, there is never never any confusion over which hand does what, and never an instant when I can't lock the belay. Of course, I always have the option of using hand matching techniques if I want to. But in climbing gyms, most people are unfamiliar with the method and don't recognize what I believe are its supperior attributes. I have even received some comments from employees for not using the "right technique."

before Before I open my mouth and attempt to educate others I decided to seek input/opinions. Anyone else familiar with this technique these days? Does anyone have any thoughts why this non-hand match technique, as described, is inadequate, or inferior to whats most often taught? Is there any reason why it should'nt be taught to people belaying leads?

Steven, my preference is for the Slip, Slap, & Slide method.

I also started in the days of hip belays and then sticht plates. It comes so naturally that I had to sit here and visualize particular situations while actually going through the motions with my hands. My colleagues here at work are probably wondering what I'm looking at on my computer. Anyway...

I generally tend to do what you do: let the rope slide through the brake hand when paying out, or slide the brake hand up the rope grab and pull when bringing rope in. However, when I need to bring rope in very quickly, I'll bring the brake hand up to the hand above the belay device, hook the rope with a finger, and quickly bring the brake hand back down.

Mark Nelson wrote:Steven, my preference is for the Slip, Slap, & Slide method.

You, sir, are due for a flogging.

i think teaching the "basic belay" is the right way to go. i also belay by your second technique but feel that learning to match hands teaches you awareness (both where your hands are and how much rope you have out). i think technique #1 is even alright on easier sport or trad routes (though a competent leader is important). given time i feel most people change to technique 2, but by the time they're belaying using that method they are aware of everything going on around them.

As previously quoted- this is the proper way to belay and other methods are wrong-END OF IT !!!

I agree with Mark that "slip, slap, slide" is the best way to teach beginners to belay. Assuming it's done right the brake hand is always in a good position to lock off.
The way many programs teach as Steven described is confusing and potentially dangerous. Whenever I have seen this method is used, the student ALWAYS takes awhile to figure out which hand to keep on the brake end before being able to do it automatically. The problem comes when they pull in a lot of slack (trying to keep up with the climber) and the brake hand ends up above the pinch hand, the student then releases the brake hand and moves it around the pinch hand. Even saw this happening at a local crag a couple weeks ago. Scary.

Issue 1: Basic Belay Technique
I have taught both methods that you are refering too. Each is safe. The second method you refer to required less reaction time by the belayer, to get in braking position; and in the state of a fall, both hands would more likley be used in the braking position.

I teach the first method more often than not, because of the following reasons.

The group, had had experience belaying with the other method. In the settings that I have worked in we ask the group to double check each other, this is better accomplished by everyone using the same technique.

The staff, and what technique they feel comfortable with also plays a big part in what method we teach. If I force a staff member to teach something that they are not 100% on...

In a small group or one on one, I teach whatever come more natural to the person. You can't force someone to use a technique they don't feel comfortable with and call it safer.

Issue 1: Dicey Lead

I don't really see this covered under basic belay technique. If you are looking to teach someone how to belay, then lead on run out marginal gear you are a braver man than I, there is no advice I can give on that.

That being said, belaying lead requires a bit more than the basics. The rules in belaying are not as clear cut and begin requiring judgement. Where do I stand? How much slack should I give? Do I need to give a soft catch? These just seem to get more complicated.

Issue 2:Superior Technique

Sorry to hear you given a hard time about your technique. I have worked in both gyms, the one where it would be embraced and the one where it would just not be allowed.

If you have a knowlegdgeable staff, they should be able to use their judgement to decide if what you are doing is safe. The big rule don't take your brake hand off the rope, if they say your doing this no problems.

The other situation is the dreaded fitness center, or must use our method place. I have created this rule, myself for some simple reasons. In order to have the wall open someone must be working who is qualified, knows how to belay and tie in. To extend hours, keep the wall open whenever the gym was open, not just certain times, I had to teach the entire fitness center staff of non-climbers how to tie in and belay. These are not individuals I want making judgement calls as to whether your technique is safe or not. If you know what you are doing accomidating them should be no problem.

I guess the correct respons would be find a place that embraces, your technique, you will probally have a better time.

A belay can be good or bad regardless of specific technique. Lots of rules have reasons even though they are not always apparent, how bright is the kid behind the desk?

Steven Amter wrote:I've noticed that most belayers, especially for toproping, use the "pull, match hands (above the belay device - near face level), pinch (the belay end), slide hand method.

I believe (not 100% sure) that this is a remnant of belaying with a munter hitch, where the correct position for braking would be above the belay carabiner. I used to use this method until a few years ago, then switched to the "below-the-device" method you describe here:

Steven Amter wrote:I have seen a generally better variation taught where the braking hand always stays below the device. In other words, the hand pulling in or playing out rope above the belay device is momentarily brought down to somewhere above the knee level pinch the belay end and allow the braking hand to slide up.

I teach this in belay classes at my gym, with the added instruction that only one hand is the brake hand - you will be sliding the correct hand up every time and there is NO switching or releasing of the brake hand. When toproping (taking in rope) the pinch will always be below the brake hand. This is what is suggested to teach belayers by the AMGA and I've had a lot of success with it so far.

I don't teach sliding the brake hand on the brake side when toproping just because there is a less-than-secure point in time when you are sliding your hand where it MIGHT be possible to lose control. I've seen people NOT slide their hand up, but reset their grip when they really meant to just slide their hand.

If an experienced climber comes into our gym for a belay certification, I typically will let them belay with the methods they are used to as long as they can maintain control over the brake hand and catch falls properly. It's safer IMO to let someone belay the way they have for 20 years than to try to teach a new way that is unfamiliar.

I was taught with the above the device method I've always been able to react and catch a fall but it always seemed sketchy to me. What exactly is slip slap slide? sounds awkward and time consuming

sorry to get off topic but hey Webejammon are there any Gyms in Laramie?

Many different belaying methods are safe as long as there is always a hand on the break, the belayer is anchored in properly if need be, and most importantly the belayer is attentive.

The B.U.S. method is/should be in my opinion the industry standard for climbing gyms. Brake Under Slide. This is the method that the AMGA endorsed to teach when I took the Top Rope Site Manager Course

My reasons for thinking this is that:
As said above the slip slap slide resulted from belaying with a munter.

Your middle and pointer fingers are stronger than your pinky finger when catching a fall. If you have your hand facing up your pinky finger is on top.

You can easily lead belay with the BUS with practice. I hate it when gym instructors use the excuse (oh they probably will never climb outside) it should be taught properly all the way along.

If for some reason and accident happened at your gym and it went to court, the courts would research the industry standards. The BUS is the method taught by the AMGA and NOLS both industry leaders.

I think this is an age old debate and other ways are definately safe, but with the liability of gym climbing there should be some standard backed by research.

• **EDIT***

Jake beat my post by a minute. Everything he said is my thinking.

I think Jacob has it right the B.U.S. is the better system to teach to everyone, the hesitation at the top (slap) and the amount of time the (slide) takes place put the two ropes parallel and therefore not in the safest position. When I learned, slip slap slide was great, then as I started climbing, longer alpine and ice routes often led with two ropes, B.U.S. made way more sense, it was easier to manage and pay out ropes to a leader, and felt way safer to be on lead knowing that my belayer wouldn't blow it as I was flailing away on lead. As a former climbing instructor, I only taught B.U.S, before I even knew what it was called.

I also have seen belayers at some places blow slip slap slide by taking the hand off the break rope, and recatching it after pulling rope through, the left hand(non break hand) for most people doesn't need to be up the rope feeling for movement, it can be free to eat, drink and pick your nose.

Rules!

Hogwash! This here's America son we ain't got no RULES. You're free to fuck up anyway you like here in the good old USA...

JacobD wrote:Many different belaying methods are safe as long as there is always a hand on the break, the belayer is anchored in properly if need be, and most importantly the belayer is attentive. The B.U.S. method is/should be in my opinion the industry standard for climbing gyms. Brake Under Slide. This is the method that the AMGA endorsed to teach when I took the Top Rope Site Manager Course My reasons for thinking this is that: As said above the slip slap slide resulted from belaying with a munter. Your middle and pointer fingers are stronger than your pinky finger when catching a fall. If you have your hand facing up your pinky finger is on top. You can easily lead belay with the BUS with practice. I hate it when gym instructors use the excuse (oh they probably will never climb outside) it should be taught properly all the way along. If for some reason and accident happened at your gym and it went to court, the courts would research the industry standards. The BUS is the method taught by the AMGA and NOLS both industry leaders. I think this is an age old debate and other ways are definately safe, but with the liability of gym climbing there should be some standard backed by research.

Jake, perfectly said. I would like to add that it seems that most climbers I see at the gym, even B.U.S. belayers, often bring the brake rope all the way up parallel with the climber's rope. Well maybe we should call them B.O.S belayers when they do this but anyway...BAD NEWS. Far better to push the brake rope out, away from you and keep it as close to perpendicular as possible. This is one of my biggest beefs about some belayers.

Folks...palms down...push brake rope out away from you...NEVER let brake hand leave rope.

Nevertheless....NOTHING TAKES THE PLACE OF GOOD ATTENTIVENESS. A couple months ago at a gym I watched a so called "accomplished, experienced belayer" belaying a so called "accomplished, experienced leader". The belayer is using a reverso3 , properly B.U.S belaying, but feeding slack by the feel of the leaders tug while trying to strike up a conversation with the "hottie" that is putting her shoes on at the bench opposite the wall. The leader is climbing overhanging 5.11+ and calls clipping. Said belayer glances up and sees said leader straining to reach WAY UP THERE to the next clip. Belayer quickly feeds out 2 to 2.5 yards MORE ROPE THAN NEEDED and lazily looks back at Hottie. Leader misses the clip, falls 25 ft, bashes his belayer on the way down and decks on a tight rope..... thankfully no one is hurt.

And so, a good palms down, rope never parallel, B.U.S. belay is worthless in the hands of an inattentive belayer.

Ternes wrote:i think technique #1 is even alright on easier sport or trad routes (though a competent leader is important).

That is so absurd. What the heck does the difficulty of the climb have to do with it? What that implies is "it is ok to belay with the inferior technique cause the leader is very unlikely to fall". A fall is a fall and a belayer should be prepared to catch all the time, every time with the best technique. And, falls on easier routes are often more dangerous.

Ternes wrote:given time i feel most people change to technique 2, but by the time they're belaying using that method they are aware of everything going on around them.

Changing techniques down the road is not so easy. One has to unlearn habbits and work much harder to create new ones.

Palm down is hands down the best. Brake is alway in position.

On a slightly different note:

I once worked at a university climbing gym that was run by this old, crusty guy that didn't know what he was talking about. One of his rules for belaying was that you MUST attach your belay device through both the waste and leg loops and that it was AGAINST THE RULES to attach the belay device through the belay loop.

Man, was he a silly bastard.

p.s. I use a grigri, what do you mean by belay technique?

Dusty Ross wrote:On a slightly different note: I once worked at a university climbing gym that was run by this old, crusty guy that didn't know what he was talking about. One of his rules for belaying was that you MUST attach your belay device through both the waste and leg loops and that it was AGAINST THE RULES to attach the belay device through the belay loop. Man, was he a silly bastard. p.s. I use a grigri, what do you mean by belay technique?

I have heard the same thing before about the "belay" loop and still to this day see people clipping in and not using it. in fact the gri gri doesnt work too well when you do that, it almost requires the use of the belay loop.

speaking of the grigri, apparently I have been doing it wrong for 10+ years and hundreds of catches.

apparently I have been using my ATC wrong too according to a 16 year old gym lifegaurd in SLC, your belay hand palm should be facing the floor and not the sky.....

mobley wrote: apparently I have been using my ATC wrong too according to a 16 year old gym lifegaurd in SLC, your belay hand palm should be facing the floor and not the sky.....

I would tend to agree. If your palm is down then you have better breaking abilities, or movement. With the palm up your elbow only lets you go so far. Plus palm down allows, me at least, to feed out rope much faster, and safer in my opinion.

"the belay loop", where do I find that on my swami?