What's up with the AMGA? I think it's fuzzy math.

I was just surfing the AMGA site because I was interested in furthering my climbing career... Anyway, I figured since I've been climbing 20+ years, all over the world and on all mediums I'd have a pretty good chance of passing an exam. So, I looked further into the Alpine Guide Cert., then I checked out the pre-reqs. no problem, I really want to learn from the best and be professional. Then I saw the price, holy s#&%, it was more than my complete college education (I have a bachelors degree from CSU). That's correct, it costs $8,200 to become certified as an AMGA Alpine Guide! And, that's just one step en-route to getting the full...I guess it's a Phd. in guiding. On top of that you apparently have to be sleeping with someone to get any sort of scholarship. Is it just me or am I missing something. I know and climb with several "certified" guides and it seems they're always acquiescing the hard leads. I guess it's like I'm guiding the guide, maybe I deserve an honorary degree!

Beagle, with looks like that you should be a movie star...pays much better than guiding for sure.

Nothing 'fuzzy' about the math (unlike the current wall street/ gov./ individual created crisis). The avg. expense for a full AMGA/UIAGM/IFMGA license is around 20-25k in the US plus you have to be a relatively skilled all-arounder. Most folks are stronger in one discipline or another (rock, alpine, ski mountaineering) and if you are the rope-gun in the alpine then at least you have that part figured out.

There are no honorary guiding degrees available for being a good climber, just the self satisfaction of knowing you da man or woman. The reality is that guiding and climbing are in many ways two different deals - that's why most of the best climbers and skiers make terrible guides as patience, listening/communication, empathy, self-sacrifice,and teaching skills are usually the most important attributes. And climbing skills don't necessarily translate to guiding skills as you have different goals and methods to get to the same point (summit or whatever it is).

You're probably over the top with the 'sleeping for scholarship' approach as the certified guides are 95% male sponsored by companies that probably don't want a hairy, smelly alpine climber looking for buggery as a scholarship candidate...but then again if you look like your photo, it could be a good option!

You can contact me personally if you would really like to discuss this formally versus spewing bs on the web- guide@climbinglife.com
is the easiest way. Nothing persnal about my reply (since I don't believe that is really you in the photo) so please don't take it that way.

Beagle, keep cranking and be glad that you didn't have to pay that much for your degree and don't give up your day job yet, at least until the economy improves!

cheers,
Eli

Beagle-

Eli makes great points-

Really the cost just comes down to simple math- Most college classrooms run at very high ratios- 15-30 or more students to one professor. When running AMGA courses we can run only 3:1 in the entry level courses and then go try to work with 3:1 or 2:1 to one in the advanced level courses and then only 2:1 in the exams- with 2:1 the course or exam loses money. Take in to account instructor/examiner pay- travel costs(flight, hotel, food, rental cars etc etc...) the margins are very slim as they are in normal guiding.

As far as guiding the guide this happens all the time- You certainly don't have to be a rock star or alpine god to get certified. In fact the climbing skill levels are quite low. But the rescue skills are top notch. Also as Eli points out your climbing ability is a very small part of the job- Its more about patience, teaching and figuring out what your guest's needs are. Although some of the top climbers in the world are also certified guides- Steve House is no slouch in the Alpine and Sonnie Trotter is on track or already rock certified in Canada.

I will say that having gone through the whole process the pay off has been great and helped with getting good work and better pay!

By the way you were great in Meet the Parents and even better in Zoolander- Stick with that I say!!!!!

Cheers,

Dale Remsberg

I think I'm going to open-
Beagle's Institute for People Who Want to Guide Good & Do Other Things Good Too!
And the only way to get a scholarship is by "Going Monk"

Justin, I take it you've never seen Zoolander. I suggest you amend your netflix list.

Eli Helmuth wrote:You're probably over the top with the 'sleeping for scholarship' approach as the certified guides are 95% male sponsored by companies that probably don't want a hairy, smelly alpine climber looking for buggery as a scholarship candidate...but then again if you look like your photo, it could be a good option!

Eli, you never fail to get a chuckle out of me, but I was just drinking a homebrew when I read this, and about lost it!

Beagle, I would listen to both Eli and Dale, both top-of-the-range guides!

What is this?

A GUIDE SERVICE FOR ANTS?!?

And here in Colorado, there is an almost overwhelming sense of euphoria as the newly-elected prome minister has given this nation a gift of hope promising to raise the substandard minimum wage and end child guiding once and for all. Already considered a living saint he has become this small country's greatest hope for a thriving future in the new millennium.

"I know and climb with several "certified" guides and it seems they're always acquiescing the hard leads. I guess it's like I'm guiding the guide"
I can Derelicte my own routes! Thank you very much.

"I was just surfing the AMGA site because I was interested in furthering my climbing career"
I'm pretty sure there's a lot more to life than being a really, really, ridiculously good guide. And I plan on finding out what that is.

"as the certified guides are 95% male"
But why male guides?

"I would listen to both Eli and Dale, both top-of-the-range guides!"
You is talking loco and I like it!

OK, sorry, but I gotta call "BS" here a little bit. Now don't get me wrong, some of my good friends are full IFMGA guides and I have enormous respect for guides to the point of publicly calling "BS" on many folks who claim to be guides but who aren't certified. All that said....

The cost-thing is a pretty blatant money grab and/or attempt drastically limit the number of fully certified guides and/or to up the price of guiding by upping the cost of becomming a guide. I'm pretty sure that the student/instructor ratio was just the same 5-6 years ago when the course/exam costs were about 1/4 of what they are now.

Again, I personally think that certified guides are worth every penny they charge, but asking someone to pay $20K - 25K for certification when guiding may pay only a bit more than that for several years after is not exactly realistic.

If AMGA wants to adopt the model of the American Medical Association, they'd better re-think the necessity of climbing vs. health care in the marketplace - especially in a country where anyone can call themselves a guide (not that I support this) but you'll go to jail for calling yourself a doctor without proper training/credentials.

Further, sorry, but the technical requirements (at least on rock) are hardly "quite low" i.e. reliably on-sighting Grade V 5.10b/c climbs to take the Rock Guide exam. Not world-class for sure, but not exactly "quite low" either.

Lastly, not exactly unbiased responses from Eli or Dale, part of whose meal ticket comes from these very high course costs. And what would be the point of taking it to e-mail? The whole point of the post was to publicly question the cost of the guiding classes (which I think is a reasonable thing to do). What would be the good of questioning it in private to someone who clearly (for good reasons of economic self-interest) supports the cost? That'd be a pretty short conversation, no?

Just my $0.02. YMMV.

Kevin-

I started my course work 5-6 years ago and the cost was not a quarter of what it is now- I believe the cost has gone up 200-400 dollars- Not sure on exact amount but very little compared to how much travel and insurance costs have gone up-

Just do the math- the courses make very little money and the exams lose money- Thankfully the AMGA is a non profit and has some great donors that help float the bill- Also the AMGA instructors are the lowest paid in the world- In some cases by half! Our answers are bias but not based on income but rather the passion to continue the guiding education.

As far as the climbing standard I did not mean to say 10c is a low standard but rather compared to world standards ours is one of the lowest- In Europe and Canada the standard is mid 5.11. Keeping it lower helps be more welcoming to a broad range of new candidates.

Cheers,

Dale

Right on Jon. And Kevin, you seem to be the only one who really got what I was saying. I'm not trying to dis the AMGA, just wondering where they came up with their prices. And, Dale- if you started your training 5-6 years ago you probably didn't have to take the RIC (or applicable entry level courses), therefore saving $2,000 right off the bat. It'd be nice if the AMGA would realize that many qualified guides, I'm including myself here, would easily enter at the next level. Therefore leaving the RIC and other entry level courses open for entry level aspiring guides. I do regret the fact that I didn't enroll in the AMGA course when I first thought of it back in like 96'- I'd probably finally be making decent money and it would have cost about a quarter what it is now. Maybe I'll still see you guys and call you Professor soon.

My wife and I were just talking the other day about how Zoolander and Starsky and Hutch are two of our favorite comedy's, so between Jon and Beagle, the humour continues. (I'm in the UK ,so the spelling may be a mix between American and English...just noticed today that tire is spelled tyre here...)

But there is a serious note to this conversation and it has been discussed in depth at AMGA board meetings and technical committee meetings for many years. We're all concerned about how to keep the course costs at the absolute minimum level, as we all know that this is the biggest deterrent for most individuals in pursuing AMGA certification.

As Dale explained well, these are relatively small ratio courses with high travel, insurance, and salary/work comp/tax costs, that without serious financial support from sponsoring companies and generous private individuals would cost even more.

This doesn't mean that what we have currently is an ideal situation and each person has to weigh the cost vs. benefit ratio involved with pursuing this type of training and certification.

In European socialist countries like France and Switzerland, the training process is almost entirely free after you master the difficult admission process, and since we're quickly turning socialist here, that could be an option in the future. One typical US bailed-out bank executive 'bonus package' would likely cover all course and exam costs for every qualified individual for the next 50 years!

Beagle, Kevin, and Jon- thanks for questioning 'the system' because all systems should be questioned and no doubt, what we have currently in the AMGA is not perfect, and no one I know is pretending that's the case. My offer to discuss this personally versus on the forum, was simply an attempt at having a positive conversation versus the often 'negative spewage' that can take over these forums - I'm sure you know what I'm talking about....

Certainly Dale and I are not getting 'rich' through this process as the AMGA pays approx 225/day for alpine course/exam work. This is some of the most dangerous work that I do that demands a high skill/energy level, and at an avg. of 12-15 hrs/day at that pay rate, not exactly a lucrative gig.

Almost everyone who goes for the full IFMGA license who can write a decent scholarship application gets at least one scholarship and these are a big help for everyone involved in the process. Thanks very much to all the AMGA sponsors for supporting US guides.

In regard to course price increases: my first AMGA course in 1991 cost $1200 for 10 days so the current price of $2000 is not a huge increase considering gas was about 80 cents a gallon back then.

I haven't met anyone yet who has been disappointed that they chose the certification path, in fact just the opposite. The process itself can be one of the most rewarding and educational experiences in a climber/guide's lifetime.

As I'm now running my own guide service and make all of the executive decisions, I'm making one now: Beagle, for bringing this subject to the internet table, I'd like to offer you 25% off an RIC course with me and for everyone else that's interested and qualified, I'll offer a %20 discount off the course price. As long as you contact me personally at guide@climbinglife.com before the end of the year (no deposit required yet) the discount is yours for a course in 2009.

The information on my site is here: guide.climbinglife.com/inde… for the AMGA Rock Instructor Course and ClimbingLife Guide training programs.

Cheers,
Eli

Eli,
I wasn't trying to "question" the system. Zoolander is just my favorite movie and I couldn't pass up the opportunity. And, I might take you up on the 20%, another opportunity to not pass up. Thanks for the offer!

So I'm rappelling down Mount Vesuvius when suddenly I slip, and I start to fall. Just falling, ahh ahh, I'll never forget the terror. When suddenly I realize "Holy shit, Hansel, haven't you been smoking Peyote for six straight days, and couldn't some of this maybe be in your head and that AMGA guide isn't for real? If I had one of those, I never would have had slipped"

They're breakdance fighting!

Kelly Cordes wrote:They're breakdance fighting!

KELLY!!!!!! ~ Wassup o'stylish-kick-a** alpine-climbing-dude ~

Happy holidys & safe-traveling-good-weather wishes for the new year..!

Beagle wrote:Right on Jon. And Kevin, you seem to be the only one who really got what I was saying. I'm not trying to dis the AMGA, just wondering where they came up with their prices. And, Dale- if you started your training 5-6 years ago you probably didn't have to take the RIC (or applicable entry level courses), therefore saving $2,000 right off the bat. It'd be nice if the AMGA would realize that many qualified guides, I'm including myself here, would easily enter at the next level. Therefore leaving the RIC and other entry level courses open for entry level aspiring guides. I do regret the fact that I didn't enroll in the AMGA course when I first thought of it back in like 96'- I'd probably finally be making decent money and it would have cost about a quarter what it is now. Maybe I'll still see you guys and call you Professor soon.

I think having a couple of IFMGA guys, for 10 days, for $2000 isn't a bad deal. In my last course I had Doug Nidever and Tom Hargis. That's like 70 years of high-level rock guiding experience, and a lots of crazy personal experience. Bargain.

Scuttlebutt is that that the AMGA axed the "challenges" to higher level courses and exams because lots of people can talk the talk and make up resumes. Look: "I free-soloed Inshallah wearing nothing but a sock full of curry powder on my cock, one moccasym and one sabretooth strapped to a bare foot". Rumor goes that some pretty dangerous situations developed based on false/exaggerated resumes. I've actually seen this happen during a RIC, so I tend to believe it, but it's just gossip.

I learned a lot in the lower-level courses I took. I fully believe there's a difference between ten years of experience and one year of experience tens times over.

Also I want discounts too.

As a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, so must you become Derelicte!

From talking to guides in Europe, I'm pretty sure that getting a guide certificate in France is significantly more expensive.

What value does a full AMGA/UIAGM/IFMGA cert provide me here in the States?

Where exactly in the US am I not allowed to guide without it?

Does Exum, CMS, AAI, etc only hire AMGA certified guides?

As far a I can tell, there's little doubt that the quality and consistency of instruction is great, much better than the mid 90's when I experienced a little of it.

The monetary value of full AMGA/UIAGM/IFMGA certification just ain't all that for guiding here at home. Most climbing folks don't want the Dept of Int and Dept of Agriculture regulating climbing and guiding anymore than they do. This may be mistaken, but there isn't exactly an epidemic of accidents attributed to non-certified guides. As long as certified guides compete domestically with uncertifed guides (who are often just as skilled and educated), and get paid similarly, why spend your $$ on a certification that isn't required and doesn't pay off?

I am not a guide. Was only a half-assed one years ago. Respect for you guys and gals who are. You could surely make more $$ but do less good for folks in another career.

Hey Rob-

It looks like climbing is misspelled in the address above.

Try: eli@climbinglife.com

and if that doesn't work, then guide@climbinglife.com is the other option.

thanks and have a great weekend!

cheers,
Eli

Brandon Lampley wrote:What value does a full AMGA/UIAGM/IFMGA cert provide me here in the States? Where exactly in the US am I not allowed to guide without it? why spend your $$ on a certification that isn't required and doesn't pay off?

Im a guide who is not AMGA certified, and Ive learned that if you are serious about a career in guiding AMGA is the way to go. The value it provides is the label of reassurance to your clients. I guide in the CO Front Range and lead expeditions in the Karakoram (north Pakistan) to the base camps of peaks people want to climb, been doing this for 4-5 years yet most gear shops in CO wont advertise for me unless Im AMGA certified first.

The one course I took (SPI) was well worth the cost, and even though Ive been leading trad and ice for 5 years the information was overwhelming. You can still guide almost anywhere without being AMGA certified but you'll struggle to find clients.

The cost of getting certified as a IFMGA guide is expensive, no question about that. It took me 6 years to progress through the courses in another member country and 12 to 15 thousand dollars in course fees alone. None of it was sponsored. Being an assessor on a guides course is some of the hardest work you will do and often the wages are considerably less than private client rates.

The benefit of being certified is belonging to an international community and being able travel and work in those countries. I've only guided briefly in the states so I'm not up to speed with all the concerns and access issues. However, I would think that the only way things are going to change is through an organization such as the AMGA.

if you want to climb a lot then don't become a guide. You climbing will suffer. Better off going to school getting a good job and climbing on weekends and road trips. After guiding 3 or 4 weeks in a row without a day off, the thought about ice climbing or rock climbing for a couple of days is usually the last thing on your mind. You have gear to repair, clothes to wash and domestic responsibilities to take care of before you begin your next trip/shift. Hanging out at the coffee shop and watching movies in the hotel room always seemed a better idea to me.

During my busiest years I was home for 3 weeks a year. If you want to share your love of the mountains via skiing, climbing, or whatever, then guiding is a great profession and it will pay you back far more than you put into it. The guide courses get you started but they don't teach you how to guide. That takes many years. You're learning every day and it never stops...