Metolius P.A.S vs. Sterling Chain Reactor

I currently use the PAS and it's been good to me, but after looking at the Chain Reactor I'm thinking it might be better. My main harness for trad and setting is a BD Big Gun and my harness for sport and as a 2nd for others is a Petzl Corax(1.5 years old with alot of use, but everything is still in good condition and belay backed up, should retire by summer).

Has anyone ever used both? I've always been skeptical about the material on the PAS as with most dyneema/spectra catching on things. I like the coloring of the CR better and it appears to be made of nylon. Call me strange, but I feel like it might rack better than PAS.

Whichever I like better will go on the BD and if the Chain is better(especially that much better) I'll end up giving the PAS to a protege.

i would go with anchoring in with the rope. and tell your protege too!
:)

Walter,
I currently use a P.A.S. for one of my "daisies" and a purcell prusik for another. In terms of strength, the PAS is bomber, except it is made of far less dynamic material than the nylon Chain Reactor. So the difference is their ability to withstand factor 1-2 falls. Chain reactor states it'll withstand up to 3 factor 2 falls (impressive). Whether your back will is a different story. They are essentially the same thing though.

I picked up a chain reactor recently .. for what it is I like it. Yes, for trad I prefer to clove-hitch the rope, but for rapping & such it seems reasonably well-made.

How is nylon vs. dyneema for the wet ? I may just use my old PAS for ice climbing.

rhyang wrote:I picked up a chain reactor recently .. for what it is I like it. Yes, for trad I prefer to clove-hitch the rope, but for rapping & such it seems reasonably well-made. How is nylon vs. dyneema for the wet ? I may just use my old PAS for ice climbing.

Sorry I'm not around enough water to know how the PAS is when wet, but since it's dyneema then it shouldn't absorbe any water/moisure.

I generally tie in with the rope. I have never used the Chain reactor but I do have a PAS. I use it as a replacement for my belay loop when rappelling and sometimes as a temporary anchor when I am anchor building or to check my rap is secure. None of these situations will put close to a factor 2 force on it. What would someone do with these that they would generate these heavy forces?

I guess climb the length of the PAS or CR above the anchor (maybe to scoot around for a partner at a belay) and then fall on it. Even 6 feet onto a 3 foot sling is factor 2 right? Poor spine.
I have both - no feel for one over the other. The CR is a pretty green. ;-)

Good point, falling from above to below your anchor is a factor 2.

Check out this site:
http://www.getbeta.com/fall_factor.asp

170lb climber falls 3ftx2 on anchor with static cord = 17KN
170lb climber falls 3ftx2 on anchor with dynamic cord = 8.7KN

Use your Personal Anchor if you must but eventually tie in with the rope!

It is a good point not set-up to take a static hit on the anchor. However, you won't get that much on the anchor from a short fall -- you'd get a little whiplash.

The model linked is actually a pretty fair one for looking at typical whippers on the dynamic side. The actuals (actual drop testing using a dynamic rope above what the UIAA lined out) in using a dynamic rope are really about 1kN less than whatever mass you input for the results provided in the model. The model still fails in reading characteristics of an actual fall, deformation, along with how rigging properties distribute loads.

I'm with the idea in using the rope as the primary tie-in for belaying a leader & like the PAS to a redundant tie-in as you work at an anchor; you have a safety that you would really have to have a double brain fart to detach yourself completely. I also use the PAS as my lower jumar and use the daisy as the upper; as well, it's easy to slap it on an ice tool should I flame out. Cleaning the sport anchor is quick to hit both bolts with their own loop. And super easy to cow-tail the rap and set-up for the third hand hitch as well as rapping with loads. It looks like Sterling is offering about the same application, which works for me.

One thing I am looking more toward is that nylon cord -- which configures the purcell. I've been shown something a little different, I like the two cord with a sliding prussik hitch (1 full daisy-length @ 8mm & 1 loop really short @ 6mm) - you get an adjustable with that elastic nylon property.

Mark,
Yeah, the purcell system is really nice. I've used 7mm cord before, and am currently using 6mm cord. In terms of strength, it's pretty bomber. 7mm perlon = 12 kN
When you double it up as one does in a purcell prusik, the strenghth increases to 24 kN, and the double fishermen knot decreases that by about 1/3, so you can generally say that a 7mm purcell "daisy" has a strength of about 16 kN. Also, it's much much more dynamic than spectra or dyneema, so if, god forbid, one does factor 1 or 2 on an anchor, it hopefully won't hurt too bad and/or rip out your piece.

The main reason I like the simple purcell is that you have two strands. On multipitch, I hook into my anchors with the rope, but on rappels, this isn't possible. When you're looking at bolted anchors, or chain anchors and you need to clip into multiple pieces, that's where the purcell excels (one strand on one bolt, another strand on another bolt.

I have a PAS that replaced a dyneema daisy. The full strength individual pockets are nice, but I don't like the limited number of colors because I think there is a chance of accidentally unclipping a partner at a crowded belay. Also, I find it to be slightly too short, but I am tall. Nevertheless, even on trad, I carry it because I like to extend my raps.

As far as it being less dynamic, I can't think of a situation you should put yourself into that would create a fall. The PAS is meant to be a static weight anchor; maybe, adding a screamer would help if this is a particular concern. If I'm going to be climbing above the clip, I clove in with the rope, but even then, there is so little rope, the fall would be brutal.

Gobble
Evan

Will, here's one way to use cord as an adjustable anchor tie-in (not my original idea; was shown this elsewhere, but it works real well):

Adjustable Anchor Tie-In w/ cord

I think I've got this one with 8mm as the main and 7mm as the adjustable, since the smaller cord is working off two 8mm strands, it grabs just fine. You notice the knot from the main is fairly close to the end preventing the smaller adjustable from coming off; the other end of the loop is girthed into the harness -- so it's a closed system.

What does this offer? an adjustable using more elastic material, it's cheap, as with any cord -- you can dismantle it & use it for other applications if you need to, it's probably a little more bulk than a pas and it looks dorky as hell, but it works.

Mark Nelson wrote:And super easy to cow-tail the rap and set-up for the third hand hitch as well as rapping with loads.

I'm not sure I'm following you on this. I use a klemheist clipped to a leg loop below the rap device. A potential problem (or so I've heard) is that if there's too much length on the klemheist, it could potentially slide up to the device and cause a cluster-bomb. So how are you arranging this? Is one loop of the PAS cowtailing and a second loop attached to the klemheist/prusik? And is the klemheist/prusik above or below the device? Above has its own set of issues.

So many questions...

you'd run the third hand off the leg loop, the belay loop, or the main waist harness belt -- the latter two allow for bi-axial so you can work in different positions without worrying about pushing your leg up into your device. The last would be if you didn't have a belay loop, or your belay loop might be compromised.

In short, the PAS would contact & serve only to extend with your rap device, the third hand runs directly off the harness somewhere else.

In any case, you'd need to shorten the third hand or lengthen the cow-tail so the hitch doesn't suck up into the device.

Thanks. That's what I thought.

Mark Nelson wrote:Will, here's one way to use cord as an adjustable anchor tie-in: I think I've got this one with 8mm as the main and 7mm as the adjustable, since the smaller cord is working off two 8mm strands, it grabs just fine. You notice the knot from the main is fairly close to the end preventing the smaller adjustable from coming off; the other end of the loop is girthed into the harness -- so it's a closed system. What does this offer? an adjustable using more elastic material, it's cheap, as with any cord -- you can dismantle it & use it for other applications if you need to, it's probably a little more bulk than a pas and it looks dorky as hell, but just think of Noah and the Ark, right before that factor 2 hit.

I've rigged something similiar with a piece of 8mm cord as an adjustable tie in. All I did was tie into my harness with an approximately 7ft piece of cord with a figure 8. Then I put a clove hitch on a biner and tied the free end of the cord with a double fishermen's back onto itself. To extend, I just slide the fisherman's forward and adjust the clove. Reverse to shorten it. Worked pretty well.

I am a believer in anchoring with the rope. If you need to extend a device to rappel then just use a 48" runner with an overhand on a bight as your clip-in point for your belay device. You can use the remaining length of your cow's tail to transition onto the anchor for multiple rappels. Using a daisy, PAS or anything else to anchor with requires more weight to carry and increased impact force should a factor 2 occur. I only use a cow's tail for rappelling not anchoring. The benefits of anchoring with the rope helps to minimize impact forces, simplification of anchoring, minimizes excess weight of PAS etc. The greatest benefit is that you always have your anchor attachment with you. What happens when you leave the PAS at home? Some may say that sometimes you have to anchor with a runner for those extra long pitches that requires every inch of rope. I would recommend using a combination of anchoring with the rope and a sling until the Factor 2 potential is removed. Once the potential is gone just un-clip your rope.

Mark,

If you wanted to use that rig to extend your rappel would you tie a knot, use the prussic on the rappel device ( sounds sketchy ) or just not use the Purcell for that purpose? Do you you prefer that setup over tying in the rope with a clove because it is easier to adjust or are their other reasons? Maybe if the extent of my leading was over 5.8 I might understand better as I would probably encounter more hanging belays.

There were some other comments also about a rappel backup friction knot feeding into a rappel device. If you extend your rappel device with a sling, it is really easy to rig any friction knot on the brake side far enough away that it wont feed into your rappel device, much easier than rap'ing off of your belay loop.

I just started rappeling off of my PAS a month ago because I bought one of the new reverso3s and it showed that in the instructions for proper use of the device. It has so many advantages. The first loop of the PAS seems to be the perfect distance from your harness for extending your rappel.

robb macgregor wrote:I am a believer in anchoring with the rope.

Does anyone know if anchoring with the rope would make a belay escape easier or more difficult. The reason I usually use a PAS is that when I learned how to escape a belay I was told that I needed to have my attachment to the anchor independent. What about using the rope to build the anchor and having to escape a belay? I'm guessing that all of these are possible, but it seems simpler to me if the rope, anchor and belayer are all independent. Maybe I'm just ignorant.

Sergio P wrote:Does anyone know if anchoring with the rope would make a belay escape easier or more difficult. The reason I usually use a PAS is that when I learned how to escape a belay I was told that I needed to have my attachment to the anchor independent. What about using the rope to build the anchor and having to escape a belay? I'm guessing that all of these are possible, but it seems simpler to me if the rope, anchor and belayer are all independent. Maybe I'm just ignorant.

Tying into your anchor with the rope is quicker, and only a bit slower to escape the belay should you need to. How many times have you had to escape the belay? I haven't had to ever. I always tie in with the rope, and all that would be needed is for me to clip in with a sling and untie. Maybe 20 seconds?

If you are using the rope to build the anchor (swapping leads with your partner) then you would have to take the time to re-rig the anchor points with slings or cord in order to get the rope free.

As far as the PAS goes, I had one for a long time - since they first came out, and I stopped using it this year. Why? What does it do that another piece of gear that is already with you cannot? If I am on multi-pitch, I am anchoring with the rope every time, and if I have to rappel, we've already cleaned the pitches and are coming down with all the gear - I have at least 10 slings to choose from to anchor myself with. I'm trying to simplify and take as little gear as possible.

I've started carrying a 48" sewn sling that is very useful for building belays and self anchoring - you can tie overhand limiter knots to shorten it to any length. If you wanted to extend your rappel device away from your harness for any reason this is also a good solution.