Quickdraws taken off of Finger Prince in CCC

climbalot, sounds like you dont.

I am amazed that people are still amazed, baffled, pissed, etc. that draws get taken. It seems like every month, in every major climbing area in Colorado somebody is posting on mountainproject.com that their draws were taken off the route they were working.

There is right, wrong and reality and the reality is that if you leave draws there is a real possibility that they will get taken. If you don't want to take the chance that your draws will get taken, don't leave them.

Bruce

What is the rule of thumb for projecting?
As long as it takes until the end of time?

There is some point at which projecting ends and mere convenience takes over.

Dave Pilot wrote: "Usually folks leave the route completely equipped so they are ready for the next redpoint attempt. This is standard sport climbing tactics."

Standard sport climbing tactics? Hmm. Every climber I know places their own gear and removes it when it's time to go home, projecting or not. Wouldn't "Completey equipped" include a rope? How much gear should one leave in place anyway? Why not leave a rope, some harnesses and a chalk bag. Of course I'm exaggerating to make a point. As climbers, bikers, hikers, campers or whatever reason you use public lands I believe one has a responsibility to keep our impact as minimal as possible. As climbers, anything left behind should be as discrete as possible so as to go virtually unnoticed by non climbers such as camouflaged anchors. Draws left behind certainly are not discrete. Some may even believe they appear like trash. The draws hanging on that route coming out of the cave on Whale's Tail in Eldo is a good example IMHO.

Calling "removing draws" theft is absurd. If you leave gear anywhere kiss it goodbye. If it is still there when you return or if someone returns it to you kiss it hello. If I find gear I make an effort to return it to the owner. By the way, I found lots of gear on Spearhead from an obvious bail a few weeks ago. Please PM me to identify and I'm happy to return it.

Access is everyone's responsibility and impact is the number one threat to access. Lets keep it clean out there!

Greg D

You dont climb at Rifle do you?

"Standard sport climbing tactics" is a very different statement than "Standard sport climbing tactics in Rifle". Likewise "gluing and chipping holds" at Utah's Industrial Wall was standard practice and acceptable. Probably not acceptable at most other areas.

Greg D wrote:"Standard sport climbing tactics" is a very different statement than "Standard sport climbing tactics in Rifle". Likewise "gluing and chipping holds" at Utah's Industrial Wall was standard practice and acceptable. Probably not acceptable at most other areas.

True...

In this case though, fixed draws seem to be (IMO) acceptable within CCC as evident by the fixed draws still on WOJ plus those on Primo, Armory etc

To be fair, PRRose, I think you should acknowledge it's more ambiguous. The "legality" depends on norms of behavior recognized by society. It's much clearer for parked cars and tents at campsites than for gear left on routes.

A better analogy might be frisbees left in a park or something else that isn't universally accepted and raises at least uncertainty about whether the owner left it intentionally and intends to reclaim it. The norm of leaving project gear is forming in climbing, though not without controversy even in our own community.

But it remains to be established as a general public matter that it's OK to leave personal bookmarks staking dibs on a piece of wild, or at least public space.

Legally, it is not yet so clear that it ends debate just to cite a statute on theft...which is why you can't cite the outcomes of cases involving unattended climbing gear. Jared has a point there. A DA may file charges tomorrow, courts may rule, and the law may be clarified as a result. Until then, it ain't legally the same as auto theft or campsite raiding.

But since lawyers never run out of "other hands" I gotta agree that Dave Pilot made a fair point. *Climbers* usually know why gear is left and what someone's expectation is. A climber who pinches draws--except to remove blight, with some kind of effort at fair notice to the owner--is doing wrong. But whether it's legally theft depends on whether the law would conclude the gear was abandoned and fair game. That issue is unsettled.

PRRose wrote: Or are you suggesting that you have the right to raid a campsite on forest service land .

On forest service land, one cannot camp in a single location for more than 2 weeks. Should this apply to other personal property such as quick draws?

I don't recall suggesting "right to raid" anything. I believe all outdoor recreationalist have a responsibility to "tread lightly" and leave the least impact possible. This, of course, is subjective.

PRRose wrote:The only point you make that is remotely valid concerns whether the owner intended to return to reclaim the property. In these circumstances, it is clear that the owner did intend to return, and it would be perverse to argue otherwise.

PRRose wrote:Your argument that it takes cases involving unattended climbing gear to establish whether an act that satisfies all elements of the statute is subject to the statute is patently absurd.

Actually, they're the same argument, PR. And it's less about the owner's intent than about the owner's legal privileges. The real issue is whether the law, probably acting through a jury, would decide a climber is entitled to leave his/her gear indefinitely in a public place, and all others must respect its status, or whether, and under what conditions, the property should be deemed abandoned regardless of the owner's subjective intent to reclaim it.

Parked cars; tents in campsites...society has pretty much spoken. Climbing gear dangling days on end...not so much.

Please don't tell me any doubt about that question is patently absurd. If you are rock certain, you should get out of your hourly tax(?) practice and charge real money advising corporations exactly how the courts will decide unprecedented legal issues.

Since leaving draws hanging are an issue then what about the line of white chalk residue running up routes for those of you that think taking someones draws is ok? If part of your argument is the look and visibilty to others or consider it littering and quoting the leave no trace ethic, then how do you justify using chalk? You can't have it both ways. I can spot those white lines from a distance long before draws (I do use chalk by the way, just trying to make a point). I do agree that in areas that are sensitive or highly visible to the genaral public leaving draws hanging should not be done. Point of the matter is that if you take someones draws off a route and then decide your keeping them..........your stealing.

PRRose wrote: No, its not. Taking something that doesn't belong to you is stealing, and it's wrong. Don't they teach that in kindergarten anymore? It's irrelevant whether the stolen property is on public land. Or are you suggesting that you have the right to raid a campsite on forest service land because its location irritates you? In situations in which access is threatened by project draws, it is appropriate to bring pressure to bear to prevent the harm of closure--but that doesn't extend to absconding with draws. For example, they could be stripped and left at the bottom of the crag (and the issue highlighted on MP). In this case, the WOJ, which is not visible from the road or any trail, sports a fixed rope and hardware. The evidence indicates that the draws were not removed for prudential reasons.

Would you argue that if I went to the crag and taped a 50 dollar bill to each bolt returning a day, week, month later to find my money gone that I've been robbed? I mean it was mine, I left it there with the full intention of coming back and retrieving it. What's the difference? Anyone that leaves their draws on a route, project or not is putting their faith in human nature. Honor, valor, respect are not qualities that everyone holds so when your stuff gets stolen yeah it sucks and no one likes it but you probably could have done something to protect yourself like not leaving your things behind.

I acquired a number of bicycles a while back. I put them unlocked on the bike rack by my house. They chilled for about 3 months and my friends and I used them as we pleased. One day they were all gone. I was mad, angry, felt somewhat violated but I was not surprised. I was actually surprised they lasted that long considering. Was I robbed? Did I deserve to lose my bikes? The answer is yes, I didn't protect my property and it was taken. I'm not 100% sure but I am confident that the building itself took them and threw them away. A few days later a sign showed up saying unlocked bicycles will be disposed of.

This argument and the stashing pads argument are no different. A lot of people perceive your left behind property as trash. If it's trash it gets disposed of. Theft? My personal opinion is that you were not robbed but set yourself up to lose your property.

I think that climbing etiquette is something learned over time. The majority of the climbers on this forum probably have learned that if there is a route of draws up that it's not booty, but if somebody bails out on a climb and leaves a draw or a biner and cleans the rest, they expect to lose that gear. I was at Canal Zone a week ago and I went up there friday night and worked on an 11 up there, but it started raining and so my family and I bailed, I left a bail biner on the route. I fully expected to come back the next day to retrieve it, however I also figured that if somebody got there before me that it was their booty. A couple of guys were working the problem when I got there and I mentioned my biner, but I told them "Hey, if you need it to bail on it's yours, if you get it you can have it." I figured they earned it to a degree. But they were cool and gave it back. I think the point is, that not all climbers are born understanding the way the majority of us do things and the etiquette we have, doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong... just makes it frustrating for us!

Jeff Barnow wrote:A lot of people perceive your left behind property as trash. If it's trash it gets disposed of. Theft? My personal opinion is that you were not robbed but set yourself up to lose your property.

He's one of the owner's peers, PR; He might end up on the jury.

Dreadlock wrote:Since leaving draws hanging are an issue then what about the line of white chalk residue running up routes for those of you that think taking someones draws is ok? If part of your argument is the look and visibilty to others or consider it littering and quoting the leave no trace ethic, then how do you justify using chalk? You can't have it both ways. I can spot those white lines from a distance long before draws (I do use chalk by the way, just trying to make a point). I do agree that in areas that are sensitive or highly visible to the genaral public leaving draws hanging should not be done. Point of the matter is that if you take someones draws off a route and then decide your keeping them..........your stealing.

Your left behind chalk has zero value to anyone. It is not reusable so it will be safe when you leave it behind. This is not a topic of leave no trace. It is a topic about theft vs. appropriation.

People steal, that's why it is a bad idea to leave your things of value behind. People can and will take it.

Tim Kline wrote:I think that climbing etiquette is something learned over time. The majority of the climbers on this forum probably have learned that if there is a route of draws up that it's not booty, but if somebody bails out on a climb and leaves a draw or a biner and cleans the rest, they expect to lose that gear. I was at Canal Zone a week ago and I went up there friday night and worked on an 11 up there, but it started raining and so my family and I bailed, I left a bail biner on the route. I fully expected to come back the next day to retrieve it, however I also figured that if somebody got there before me that it was their booty. A couple of guys were working the problem when I got there and I mentioned my biner, but I told them "Hey, if you need it to bail on it's yours, if you get it you can have it." I figured they earned it to a degree. But they were cool and gave it back. I think the point is, that not all climbers are born understanding the way the majority of us do things and the etiquette we have, doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong... just makes it frustrating for us!

This seems like the most coherent answer so far. However, I do find it rude to leave gear on a route as I don't trust other people's gear. That means that I would have to take all of the QD's off, place my gear, carry their gear with me, clean my gear and replace theirs. The answer here is to clean your route when your done - project or not.

PRRose wrote: I don't think anyone has posited that the OP had "abandoned" his draws in the legal sense. It has been acknowledged that he expected to return within a reasonably short period of time to use them. Lest you think that such behavior is restricted only to climbers, I would point out that many outdoor users use public lands in similar ways--hunters build blinds, ice fisherman haul houses out on frozen lakes, and timber cutters leave equipment. In each case, I think the law would recognize their settled expectation that their property remains their property even when they are not in close proximity to it.

Hmm. A couple good points. I don't think the issue is the owner's subjective intent to return to the property. It's the conditions under which society treats his claim of continued ownership of the unattended property as reasonable. On that point, I'll have to ponder the relevance of duck blinds and fish shelters. Hmm again.

EDIT: Oh come on, whether the draws should be considered abandoned is at best a mixed question of law and fact, if not a pure fact question. I'll concede you a couple points, but not that one :)

EDIT 2: For the nonlawyers, PR's and my quibble about juries and questions of fact or law boil down to whether (a) a jury will decide if the draws are "abandoned" as a matter of identifying relevant facts, or (b) whether a judge will decide the issue by reading laws from the books. I say jury/fact. PR appears to say judge/law.
PR, correct me if I mischaracterize.

PRRose wrote: Jeff's position is that if "you set yourself up to lose your property", it's not theft. That's a largely discredited idea known as "blaming the victim." Whether a crime has occurred does not turn on whether the victim was negligent. Unless, perhaps, you think that its not a crime to steal an unlocked car.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I never said it's right I just said this is the reality we live in, act as you please and reap the consequences of trusting the public with your property. Hey I lost my bikes, I didn't like it but I'm not trying to justify my actions or theirs. I left them out and they are gone...it's not right but it is what it is.

I have yet to lose any climbing gear aside from bail gear. Bail gear in my book is lost gear or an investment to secure my life. Each route is an investment. Some cost more than others depending on your decisions.

Erik T's point is point enough why you shouldn't leave your draws on any route, project or not, worried about theft or not. He is just as entitled to use the route as you and by leaving your draws behind you are imposing and inconveniencing him.

Something else to consider - while untested, the Guidelines for this area under Fixed Protection only address fixed-permanent protection as acceptable. As well, under Access you could also correlate means of accessing an anchor by use of draws left in place as unauthorized structure/improvement if left on route. Wouldn't the same be true if fixed lines were placed as a means of ascending a hillside, as would any materials left in place to farm ice?

Going back to my comment on time-line, this is an visual impact to the non-climber. Projecting wasn't addressed in the Guidelines, however the Guidelines probably won't look favorable on the climbing community in this respect if non-permanent equipment is left on route for a prolonged period.

Drawing a relation here -- you basically do violate the Guidelines by leaving gear as a matter of convenience, the exception is fixed-permanent (bolting). So, in the case where the climber has already violated a law; I don't see an enforcement on theft if the equipment is subsequently removed. Granted & again, the Guidelines are untested, but they were properly voted into effect.

Also, did anyone answer the question of basing a criminal prosecution on civil case law? Has that ever occurred and been upheld?

PR - I just think that your argument differs from what most of us are saying. Everyone here agrees theft is wrong. Not everyone perceives these missing draws as stolen. Not saying that's my position. My point is theft occurs in our world all the time whether right or wrong whether by someone in the climbing community or not. By leaving your things behind you are putting yourself at risk of losing your gear...legal or not, accepted within the community or not.

Are chopped bolts stolen property? Do the people that chop them feel you broke the law by placing them there.

Everyone has a different perception of what is right or wrong, acceptable vs. unacceptable.

Perhaps a climber that feels extremely offended by being inconvenienced by the removal and replacement of draws left behind is teaching the community a lesson as to why not to leave you stuff in a public place. Whether it's legal, right, or wrong doesn't change what happen to Cass but perhaps in the future he/she won't do it again. From the many threads that are exactly the same as this one it does appear that most people in the community do not agree with leaving draws behind.