East v. West: attitudes, unsolicited opinions, & self-righteousness

kirra wrote:
drive a morning rush hr in phoenix and you'll appreciate folks up here much betta... :)

Drive anytime down here in NZ and you'll appreciate any place in the U.S. :)

Drive anywhere in the world for that matter and you'll start to appreciate even the worst of the U.S.!

-PV

pat vernon wrote:Drive anywhere in the world for that matter and you'll start to appreciate even the worst of the U.S.! -PV

haha ~ Yeah that's kindof where this was headed

Tony
Where did they live before moved here from Cali?

As for the windy city they drive 65 on ice and make it home.
Must admit it scared the crap out of me.

When was the last time you had to bribe a cop quick before his hefe showed up and it cost you more.

Who needs to go to the coast east or west to see shty driving?
Seems shit slinging fly’s here with out much help.

When I get pissed driving I remember how I drove in my other life.
I am getting what’s owed.

Richard S wrote: Where did they live before moved here from Cali?

Is that a trick question?

Richard S wrote: As for the windy city they drive 65 on ice and make it home. Must admit it scared the crap out of me. When was the last time you had to bribe a cop quick before his hefe showed up and it cost you more. Who needs to go to the coast east or west to see shty driving? Seems shit slinging fly’s here with out much help. When I get pissed driving I remember how I drove in my other life. I am getting what’s owed.

3 types of bad drivers:
1) Just can't control the Vehicle
2) Has ill-will
3) Drives differently than the 'judge' of good and bad would have it.

As for 1)
I would rate former Floridians, Texans, and Californians high on the 'can't control the car' scale based on I-70 in the winter, when it snows. In Cali, I don't mind getting in the left lane with them and going 95 in packs. It suits me just fine when the pavement is dry. The right lane only seems to go 80, when it is going. But my recent experience is limited to The bay area & Fresno. Can't say much about northern Cali

As for 2)
I would have ranked Chicago as tops for type #2... most ill willed. Boston was a cluster-F^%#, but nothing was moving as far as I could tell, but it was a limited sample and when all the construction was going on around the airport. I would have rated Utah and North Dakota as least ill-willed. The only places where I routinely have had drivers pause and wave me in if I put a blinker on. Most places slam on the gas to keep you out- I call it competative driving- they don't care when they get there, as long as it is before you. Never mind they were gabbing on the phone and going 40 in a 55 before you passed.

As for 3)
It's my observation that when someone moves someplace new and says the drivers there are 'the worst' its because they themselves are not used to the local style. It's almost always someone that drove somewhere alse all thier lives who moves somewhere else that levels this complaint at the drivers in a new locale- kinda the same as saying "I don't like the way they drive because it is not like I do." Secondly, some people just say it becuase they have had the most negative encounters where they live... and so the count seems higher. I gotta say- I start feeling that way about Colorado drivers, then I visit family over the holidays and that cures me- I end up in Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, Detroit or some other godforsaken midwest town and realize it ain't so bad here... or maybe that I am just used to something else now!

As for cops...
Last time I had to pay off a cop-cop, as in police man? You mean as opposed to beignblackmailed by customs or immigration? (In which case we'd be discussion Egypt or Indonesia) Well, never, but I've been taken on an alley ride and refused to play along and then got arrested for interference and went to jail... and when there was 2 of the bastards it was worse than when there was one. Now, all charges were later dropped, and I put the Denver PD on notice for false arrest, use of unneccessary force, falsification of legal documents etc, (Section 1986 Civil rights case) but the suit was dismissed on a technicality which was falsified anyway. They PD had a 'hearing' (which was 'posted,' but to which I was not invited) in which they asserted that I had plead guilty to the charge and thus could not have been falsely arrested, so the notification was 'nullified' on the last day before the notification period expired. Then the 'window' for notification closed without any valid notification despite the fact that the reason for quashing the notification was total bullshit. I didn't plea guilty to anything, actually, the charges were dropped. My ACLU/Pro Bono lawyer from the 'criminal case' against me said I should have anticipated that move. I guess that means they know that not only are the cops crooked, but that the administration routinely protects them and as such is crooked too. Surprise, surprise.

China is insane. The passing lane is simply anywhere the bus/car can fit on either side of the road. On coming traffic - no problem...the smaller car has to get out of the way...onto the shoulder or other lane, wherever.

Tom Woods wrote:Overall, drivers in Colorado are among the worst I have seen in the US.

The worst driving I have seen in CO:

For six months when I first moved out here from Maine I was living in Denver and commuting to Boulder for work every day. One day on the way home I was driving in moderate traffic (about 7:00 PM on route 36) when an evening thunderstorm started to pour down rain. Traffic was cruising along fairly nicely, albeit a bit slow because of the wet roads/poor visibility - maybe 55-60 mph...I was in the left lane when all of a sudden I had to slam on my brakes and slow to about 35 mph because the person in front of me was slamming on his/her brakes with every stroke of lightning! He/she would speed up back to 55-60 between the flashes, but then do the same for the next flash of lightning! With many cars passing on the right and honking at this person they finally pulled off the road on the left shoulder (!)...

Oh, and to stir the pot a bit more...
-New England drivers are *way* better than everyone else 'cause they know how to drive in the snow :-)
-New England skiers are *way* better skiers 'cause they know how to ski on ice! :-)

How did this turn into a discussion about driving abilities (or lack of)? :)

--Marc

I am from NYC, and all drivers here in Colorado suck! Funny thing is how many people driving here are actually from here? People stop at yellow lights they don't move out into traffic when making a turn on green, they go 2 miles an hour thru a light making a turn and actually leave space from the car in front of them.
When I first moved out here 8 years ago I purposely timed how long it would take someone to beep at me if I stayed at a green light. No one beeped they went around me!! In NY people would be jumping all over you for that! There is no traffic here!!! Takes me maybe 25 minutes to get across town. I live by Manitou. When I was working in NY i lived about 8 miles from where i worked. Used to take me about 2 HOURS to get to work. I love it here!! Although maybe we could knock Utah, Nevada & Cali off & have some beach front property on the western slopes??? LOLOLOLOL!!!!

I have never had any problems with climbers here or back east. I have seen some nasty arguments between climbers at the Gunks which i climbed at up until i moved out here. No one ever bothered me. Most often we would drive up to NH to climb. Loved it up there. Really cool climbers as well.

My guess is those "climbers" toproping may have been kinda new? I don't like soloing personally but to each his own in the climbing world.
Climb safe

Marc Horan wrote:How did this turn into a discussion about driving abilities (or lack of)? :) --Marc

Pushy behavior is pushy behavior, I think it started as an equivocable parellel.

Are you a coloradoan trying to suggest wht kind of discussion we have here? On the east coast that never happens to me!!!

(Emocon = smiley) %8^)

Funny, someone mentioned China as the worst driving around- I'd say I've found two parallels- Egypt and Indonesia. Of the only a few cars I sw in egypt that hadn't been bent up, most were still with temperary plates- seems you cna'tmake ot more than 60 days without getting hit.
In CHina they pass everywhere because they kind of have to. People walk in the street, or bike it, or drive 1/2 way between two lanes or what-have-you. Traffic was slow yesterday and as we got to the front of the jam there was a 2-wheeled donkey-cart on a hitch fixed to an modified industrial-sized roto-tiller with huge 'chopper' like handlebars reaching back to the 'carriage' on the donkey cart- and the guy was driving it down the road- turning by pushing the handlebars to the side and puttign a 'bend' in the vehicle at the pivot point like a semi-truck cab and trailer. I wish I had a camera with me. I've seen the same guy about there twice.

Mind you, I am downtown in a city of 5 Million people, not rural china.

Tony Bubb wrote:Are you a coloradoan trying to suggest wht kind of discussion we have here? On the east coast that never happens to me!!!

Nope...just trying to figure out how it started.

--Marc

Marc Horan wrote:just trying to figure out how it started.

Fate.

Ken Cangi wrote: Fate.

I guess it's kinda like the bolting debate...although at least the driving debate is a little more novel for the MP.com crowd. :)

--Marc

only 5 million...Tony you WERE in rural China!

Hey Marc: your peanut galley folks at the crags must have visited Cameron Pass last winter? one guys in a group of 3, thot he'd inform me I was a "f_king idiot" for skiing a steep line on South Diamond bowl. He screamed it out from tree line, up across the face, hundreds of yards away. Image my surprise to be accosted in the backcountry.
Image his surprise when i waited for him in the parking lot, (having memorized his jacket/hat/pack colors) and politely asked why he felt it necessary to scream obsenities in the high country.
which for me, to be polite, quite surprised/amused my buddy.
i guess there is always someone out there that want to mind your business for you.

not to take this thread further away but,

Tony, how is the spitting so far? It was insane when we were there. Mind boggling. Don't get me going on the "bathrooms" or table manners.

(Note: I did LOVE China...it is just different)

I haven't had seen too much difference in East-West as far as climbing goes. Similar attitudes to bolting or not bolting, soloing or not soloing, etc...just depends on what crag you are at and who you meet. Most everyone I've met while climbing have been nice. Not all, but most. Maybe it seems there are more "weekend warriors" back East, while out West people seem to live the full lifestyle more. Then again I'm comparing DC to Boulder...so it isn't fair. Sometimes easterns seem more balanced and cultural. In general I find them more interesting....just a huge generalization though.

Marc, so sorry about your experience at one of our fine crags in CT. I have been reading through this thread and a few ironies have popped out at me: #1 No one seems to really be FROM CO, just a bunch of transplants. #2 You can not have a discussion about CT climbing without the bolt thing rearing it's ugly head. #3 Drivers everywhere suck.
I've had the pleasure *sic* of living in CT for 14 years, and until just recently could not put a finger on what the deal was with the NE- people are smug, that's our favorite pastime! We are not really sharing our opinion, we are just pointing out that you are indeed wrong and should immediately start thinking as we do. period. wtf..
I know the fellas that ragged on you about you solo adventure, I think you mentioned they were TR'ing- pretty standard practice here. should have been the first red flag. Chances are they were shocked to see someone bold and confident enough to solo a climb, albeit a 5.6. Paranoia runs rampant among us climbers here it CT apparently, we just don't want to see you get hurt! (for our own selfish reasons) That would be bad for a few reasons, most notable is the bad press that ensues an accident at a climbing area in CT, our local govt's are spineless enough to just ban climbing if there is enough "public outrage" to pressure them into such actions. Also, if in fact you were to grab that block that has been in place since Frans climbed it in the 30's but it came out in your hand and you took the express to the base, then there would be a rescue / recovery to deal with. The FD in the area of Ragged is mostly volunteers with little or no high angle or remote rescue training, much less the fitness to carry a stokes into ragged.(The RMF bought the local vollys a stokes with a wheel on it to facilitate such rescues) Your survival would have depended on us- but specifically Matt whom you met, I have witnessed Matt in another rescue at ragged, thanks for being there Matt :) But the point is, you would have majorly inconvenienced a lot of people if you would have peeled, although unlikely. WHAT??? yah it's a chicken shit answer but, I think it is close to the truth.
I could go on but that may jeopardize my "local" status- just know that we really care, therefore we criticize....

JimO

jimo wrote:That would be bad for a few reasons, most notable is the bad press that ensues an accident at a climbing area in CT, our local govt's are spineless enough to just ban climbing if there is enough "public outrage" to pressure them into such actions.

I understand this point. But to be honest, that's not on my mind when I solo. As I mentioned to one of the guys at Ragged, falling is simply not an option. Yes it does happen. But which climbers hit the ground more, roped or unroped climbers? I can't say with any authority, but I'm pretty sure that roped climbers take it, hands-down.

--Marc

Paul Hunnicutt wrote:not to take this thread further away but, Tony, how is the spitting so far? It was insane when we were there. Mind boggling. Don't get me going on the "bathrooms" or table manners.

Bathrooms are fine if you have a phobia of toilet paper. Spitting is pretty common. Tuberculosis would spready like a wild fire here. Just a totally different idea of cleanliness.

The thing that get me most is the open-butt pants for kids so that they just pee or poop anywhere.

Marc Horan wrote:I also wanna point out that if this guy had been a lot friendlier with his opinion, then he and I might have been able to have a civil conversation and maybe I woulda learned something from him and vice versa.

Well, keep doing the belly-breathing exercises and enjoy yourself.

My take this morning: what is the biggest surprise to some of us, and thus cause for alarm, is that something we DO and ENJOY could cause such consternation in another that they feel inspired to opine.

More climbers = more fun = more feathers ruffled = a multitude of chapped assholes.

If you can wind your way through our funny little world without getting PO'd at something, kudos. And (even better) if you are somehow unable to piss off someone else... then you deserve a MacArthur Grant.

jimo wrote: //...Also, if in fact you were to grab that block that has been in place since Frans climbed it in the 30's but it came out in your hand and you took the express to the base, then there would be a rescue / recovery to deal with.//...But the point is, you would have majorly inconvenienced a lot of people if you would have peeled, although unlikely. WHAT??? yah it's a chicken shit answer but, I think it is close to the truth.//.... just know that we really care, therefore we criticize.... JimO

this is the reason i have heard a lot of people state against soloing. it's not chicken shit at all. i think it is a legit point. those guys who were the first to criticize would have been the first people to have to help had something gone wrong. maybe they have already participated in some rescues and didn't like the experience too much.