Bolting "ethics"

It shouldnt be too long before the five or six trees that are commonly used at the Main Cliff in CT for anchors are dead. I'll give them 3 more years max.
I wonder if the RMF will ever fix their website/message board.

Just to reiterate, my issue is concerning bolted anchors and the impact to our climbing areas.
The trees at all of our cliffs are hurting, the most obvious example is at the top of forearm frenzy at Chatfield. I've seen many trees there whither up from over-use, but I guess a fixed anchor is too damaging. The cedars at main cliff are next but I guess I should just relax and use the fractured rock at the top to build a gear anchor, makes things more spicy!
So suck it up and go with your crappy gear anchor and leave the trees alone!
P.S. Why would the RMF want to fix the website problem, they might have to respond to some local issues.

Brian wrote:Surreptitiously bolting someone's private property is no more ethical (or legal) than what Ken Nichols does. Who gets to decide what a "FEW" bolts are and which ones are the right ones to put in? What usually works in some areas is a group of climbers form a coalition and it is hashed out in a committe. New bolts that do not follow the plan get chopped as just happened in Red Rocks on Cat-In-The-Hat. I don't see a coalition being formed when you are talking about sneaking in and bolting someone's private property. BTW...I'm not anti-bolt.

I'm sorry you understood my post as "sneaking in and bolting private property". I'll take it you have not climbed in Little Cottonwood Canyon so in your mind this is what happened there. With a minimum of a few hundred sets of bolted anchors on classic Yosemite type cracks/climbs in this canyon, I dont believe anyone received permission from the landowners, ever. It is run as a "dont ask dont tell" thing that benefits everyone all around. the climbers have safe anchors and the landowners still have nothing to do with the climbers(no liability).

I'll stand by Jimos response to the RMF and say that if you think that what he said was trashing an organization then you are quite sensitive. I have lived here about a year now and have not seen what the RMF does besides manage a piece of land and put out newsletters with terrible "how to" sections with photos so small you cant even tell what is going on. The kiosk on the trail has membership forms locked up inside where nobody can access them and the website link for joining the RMF has been down for how long now? I believe that the organization who claims to represent the Access Fund for CT is not doing much. Promoting membership should be a priority dont you think? maybe I'm wrong?

CT has gone to sleep on their issues is what I see. People dont even talk about all the closed areas anymore. I have a huge cliff, East Rock, about 1 mile from my house that has been closed for years and from scouting around it I can say there could be nice bolted/crack climbs all over it improving the park and increasing tourism. This is what my energy will go into working on. Now lets hope the mayor has open ears and my local alderman gives a crap.

Brian wrote:jimo, Many, maybe most, climbers who use Ragged would agree with some top-rope anchors. Why don't you run for a seat on the RMF Board instead of trashing a volunteer organization who without their efforts you probably wouldn't be climbing at Ragged at all? You could get a bunch of other CT climbers who agree with the top-rope bolting to also run and take over the RMF Board with like minded climbers and then you can set policy. Or if you have any web development skills you could lend a hand maintaining the web site. My point is, it is a lot harder to do something than to critize from a web forum. I'm an RMF member. I'll vote for you. Brian

Brian- If you took what I said as trashing a volunteer orgainization, your a bit off.
Now rereading your post, Im not sure why I'm replying except to say it is not the RMF that sets policies. The RMF is "sponsored" by the Access Fund, for real. It is only logical that they would be the organization that would be expected to negotiate better access policies with local gov't. I have found no proof of what they have or have not done, I have asked but get no reply.
jo

Brian in RI-

Since you are a Ross Pond guy, do you know about the 2 bolt anchor at the party wall? The one next to the 2 inch crack? The right hand bolt is very poorly placed, sticking out more than a quarter inch. The left one is fine, but that other one should get fixed if that anchor is gonna stay. Email me so I can discuss it, I guessed you might know something about it, or maybe who placed it.

Matt
Mattshove@emsclimb.com

Matt Shove wrote:Brian in RI- Since you are a Ross Pond guy, do you know about the 2 bolt anchor at the party wall? The one next to the 2 inch crack? The right hand bolt is very poorly placed, sticking out more than a quarter inch. The left one is fine, but that other one should get fixed if that anchor is gonna stay. Email me so I can discuss it, I guessed you might know something about it, or maybe who placed it. Matt Mattshove@emsclimb.com

I'll bite, what do you think about this anchor being next to a 2" crack besides the fact that it is a tiny bit off Matt? I say this because a 1/4" is really no big deal if the expansion part of the rest of it actually bit into the rock, of course if it just kept pulling out farther and farther as it was tightened than it sucks. was it loose?

Shylo, what does this all mean? Are you targeting the unaware to educate them or are you setting up for something much larger?
As a side note, I was at Cathole the other day, not wanting to lead the choss on this particular day, embarked on setting a TR gear anchor. I realized that the features that I'd used in the past were no longer there, the freeze/thaw must have fractured the rock off. I was forced to use a static line to a (healthy) tree with a poorly placed cam as a backup-
My point here is even if I'd lead the route, there were no anchors for me to use other than trees 30 - 40 ft from the edge of the cliff. What is the harm in installing fixed anchors here?

Matt Shove wrote:Brian in RI- Since you are a Ross Pond guy, do you know about the 2 bolt anchor at the party wall? The one next to the 2 inch crack? The right hand bolt is very poorly placed, sticking out more than a quarter inch. The left one is fine, but that other one should get fixed if that anchor is gonna stay. Email me so I can discuss it, I guessed you might know something about it, or maybe who placed it. Matt Mattshove@emsclimb.com

I heard through the grapevine that those bolts were chopped since this post.

Maybe the rumor mill is alive and well, and then again, maybe it's getting blown out of proportion, again.

These are the facts:

I removed the poorly placed hardware store bolt (only one) with the intention of replacing it at the same time. I broke my drill bit right after I began drilling for the new SS triplex bolt, to accompany the one that was left. I have held all the good intentions required of getting back over to Ross Pond and replacing it, but I haven't made it in the last 2 weeks. I patched and camo'ed 3 drilled holes (a mess likely from the original bolter) as a community service. Sorry, but as a community, we should not stand for poorly placed bolt anchors. I did inform 2 local climbers in that RI/eastern CT circle of what I did, and what my intentions were. I asked them to pass it on to who they deemed necessary.

If the rest of that anchor was removed, then it's occurred since the last time I was there (about 2 weeks). I haven't heard about it being removed.

If you are attempting to implicate me as a bolt chopper of the Nichols variety, then you are wrong. If you are trying to implicate me as a bolt chopper at all, then you are still wrong. Don't drink the kool aid. I hope you'll introduce yourself to me one of these days, as I still don't know who you are Mobley. It’s pretty easy to point a finger on the internet. That being said, this is likely my last post on the topic.

Shylo wrote:With a certain convicted bolt chopper on probation until July 2009 because of his actions in a perceived ethical bolt anchor "crisis" I see this time as a opportunity for us as a community of climbers to reevaluate our usage of our cliffs to make intelligent choices for our future development. Our numbers as climbers are growing in this state and it is time for us to make good decision on how we want our cliffs to be used.

Don't get too carried away with yourselves...

Shylo wrote:I believe leading should be promoted because it confines our usage to the base of the cliff and channels our wear to the rock face and to a body length of the cliff edge and cliff base.

Or, in other words - we want to [finally] drill the shit out of CT to sport climb and will fly any flag of convenience in order to make it happen. Jesus H. Christ, the saddest aspect of ongoing whinefest is simply the unwillingness of folks like yourself to speak frankly about your true intent, own it, and at least be upfront about the reality which would quickly follow your getting your way.

Matt Shove wrote:. If you are attempting to implicate me as a bolt chopper of the Nichols variety, then you are wrong. If you are trying to implicate me as a bolt chopper at all, then you are still wrong. Don't drink the kool aid. I hope you'll introduce yourself to me one of these days, as I still don't know who you are Mobley. It’s pretty easy to point a finger on the internet. That being said, this is likely my last post on the topic.

Matt, I don't think that Mobes is implicating anything, not quite his style- he'd come out and say that if that is what he meant. As for this being the last post concerning this topic, that is somewhat counterproductive as you are an active member of our climbing community. Even though there is a great deal of spraying on these forums, it is still the only cohesive means to discuss ethics and traditions instilled on our scene within the past 20 years. We have an opprotunity to come to common ground using this means of communication, I do not believe this is a precursor to another bolt war, but a means to avoid one.
Has anyone contacted the asca for input? At the Valley last week, I encountered several individuals that were replacing bolts much in the same manner that Matt was but under the asca badge, I believe they supply the hardwear, you supply the elbow grease.
Again I'll reiterate my dreams of this movement- safe anchors at our CT crags. Period. Bolting sport routes does not appeal to me right now, Trad is Rad!!!

Matt Shove wrote:Maybe the rumor mill is alive and well, and then again, maybe it's getting blown out of proportion, again. These are the facts: I removed the poorly placed hardware store bolt (only one) with the intention of replacing it at the same time. I broke my drill bit right after I began drilling for the new SS triplex bolt, to accompany the one that was left. I have held all the good intentions required of getting back over to Ross Pond and replacing it, but I haven't made it in the last 2 weeks. I patched and camo'ed 3 drilled holes (a mess likely from the original bolter) as a community service. Sorry, but as a community, we should not stand for poorly placed bolt anchors. I did inform 2 local climbers in that RI/eastern CT circle of what I did, and what my intentions were. I asked them to pass it on to who they deemed necessary. If the rest of that anchor was removed, then it's occurred since the last time I was there (about 2 weeks). I haven't heard about it being removed. If you are attempting to implicate me as a bolt chopper of the Nichols variety, then you are wrong. If you are trying to implicate me as a bolt chopper at all, then you are still wrong. Don't drink the kool aid. I hope you'll introduce yourself to me one of these days, as I still don't know who you are Mobley. It’s pretty easy to point a finger on the internet. That being said, this is likely my last post on the topic.

I'm all for discussion. You are the one who posts something about bolts you dont like and then disappear(cut&run). That kind of behavior leads to rumors I have found. Especially if bolts disappear.
From my experience , if you start a conversation about bad bolts then dont walk away from it. You log in just about everyday(3 hours ago to be exact). Dont be a lurker.

we all know this is a touchy subject(here in this part of the world) right?

PS- I have worn out about 100 SDS bits in my life, never broken one

Unbelievable, what twisted shit is this guy thinking? This self appointed guardian of these bullshit ideals needs to be shut down!
Shylo, you're convinced it is kn who did the bashing, seems like he'd have to work with someone to ensure his own safety.
Take a minute and write the town of Meriden and voice your opinion- don't let this guy fly under the radar!

Shylo wrote:The Connecticut Climbers Coalition recently got permission from the town of Southington to utilize fixed anchors at a crag called the Fire Wall for the purpose of recreation. C3 put a lot of work getting access, a building trail, and doing clean ups at the park. Then one day after a very successful Saturday clean up Ken Nichols was seen at the top of the cliff. Six days later anchors were vandalized. The Connecticut Climber Coalition is attempting to get Ken Nichols banned from East Peak and Hubbard Park a cliff he visits all the time and some what wrongfully has a key to the gate of. If you want to help please e-mail Mark Zebora, Director of Parks in Meriden CT. You need to fill out the e-mail at this site: cityofmeriden.org/directory… Here is sample letter of why you should write. Feel free to cut and paste it if you wish, but please write Mr. Zebora: Dear Mr. Zebora, It has come to my attention that a man named Ken Nichols has access, and even an access key to the road, to Hubbard Park. Mr. Nichols is a rock climber that frequents Hubbard Park on a very regular weekly basis. Very recently Mr. Nichols plead guilty and was convicted of egregiously trespassing and willful vandalism of property of a rock climbing park called Farley in Massachusetts. In fact, Mr. Nichols has been banned at several cliffs in CT, MA, NY, and NH for unnecessary and irrational acts of vandalism that put good people at risk while they are recreating. Please see stopken.org/Nichols%20Plead… and stopken.org for more information on Mr. Nichols actions. Last weekend, Mr. Nichols was seen and is highly suspected of vandalism of rock climbing equipment that has endangered the lives of climbers at Crescent Lake Park in Southington, CT while still on probation for a prior offense. Mr. Nichols has a long history of such actions. Pictures and a description of Mr. Nichols can be found at this website. stopken.org. It is my belief that Mr. Nichols is a clear and present danger to the safety of visitors of Hubbard Park and I am asking you to please ban his access there and to please take away his key to the gate. If you have any have questions please feel free to contact me. We are contacting Mr. Nichols parole officer and sending him pictures of Mr. Nichols strongly suspected vandalism in Southington as well. Thank you for your attention to this matter and please let me know if you have any information regarding Mr. Nichols use of Hubbard Park. Regards, .... If you want to see change please write, take action, and support C3. Thank you.

Is it true that Ken Nichols is now allowed to climb at the Main Cliff? Hasnt he vandalized that cliff and been banned from there in the past?

Shylo wrote: Then one day after a very successful Saturday clean up Ken Nichols was seen at the top of the cliff. Six days later anchors were vandalized. Last weekend, Mr. Nichols was seen and is highly suspected of vandalism of rock climbing equipment that has endangered the lives of climbers at Crescent Lake Park in Southington, CT while still on probation for a prior offense.

I highly suspect GWB and Dapper Dick are criminals too. I hope I dont get in trouble with the law.

Shylo wrote:The Connecticut Climbers Coalition recently got permission from the town of Southington to utilize fixed anchors at a crag called the Fire Wall for the purpose of recreation.

Well, let me just hazard a guess that "fixed anchors" doesn't mean top anchors at Fire Wall, does it boys...?

So, after likely giving Southington officials no history and only half the story - probably emphasizing top anchor protection of trees - you've established a bolting beachhead and precedence from which to propogate out from.

Congrats! You guys should apply for one of the stimulus grants to expand production. And I hear you've even managed to elevate protecting your new lines to a Homeland Security priority with all the accompanying technovoodoo; well done.

So what's today's security status? Are you still on an ORANGE ALERT level...

Healyje wrote:So, after likely giving Southington officials no history and only half the story - probably emphasizing top anchor protection of trees - you've established a bolting beachhead and precedence from which to propogate out from. Congrats! You guys should apply for one of the stimulus grants to expand production. And I hear you've even managed to elevate protecting your new lines to a Homeland Security priority with all the accompanying technovoodoo; well done. So what's today's security status? Are you still on an ORANGE ALERT level...

Finally some one speaks the truth. Conn has always had a fucked view of bolts. It's about time that someone speaks out about this shit. Believe me i'm the last one to advocate excessive bolting- anchors are sacred and its about time that people realise that fixed gear is fixed gear- get it ????

john

Healyje wrote:So, after likely giving Southington officials no history and only half the story - probably emphasizing top anchor protection of trees - you've established a bolting beachhead and precedence from which to propogate out from. Congrats! You guys should apply for one of the stimulus grants to expand production. And I hear you've even managed to elevate protecting your new lines to a Homeland Security priority with all the accompanying technovoodoo; well done. So what's today's security status? Are you still on an ORANGE ALERT level...

You are more than welcome to come and tie off a dieing tree and do some top roping at any cliff you want to in CT still. That is still standard practice here. Nobody will chop/smash/cut your anchor. Maybe next time you visit from the state of Washington(where people actually lead climb) I could help you try to break Kens record of most top ropes on one route(DolGoldor?) in a day. I have 100' of webbing, I'm sure we could find some healthy trees to tie off up there.

john strand wrote: Finally some one speaks the truth. Conn has always had a fucked view of bolts. It's about time that someone speaks out about this shit. Believe me i'm the last one to advocate excessive bolting- anchors are sacred and its about time that people realise that fixed gear is fixed gear- get it ???? john

John, I don't get it. I don't think anyone wants excessive bolts, just some anchors, generally, and a few choice sport crags. That's not asking too much!