History of Sport Climbing?

Jay Knower wrote: Have any exclusively "trad" climbers freed routes on El Cap? I can't think of any. Not counting those who've done Freerider, I think all the climbers were strong "sportos" first.

Not one. All of these climbers (the Hubers, Glowacz, Hill, Caldwell, Sjong, Skinner, and on and on) are/were sport climbers.

Dave Holliday wrote: Do you think they'd classify themselves as trad climbers, sport climbers, or just "climbers"? I'm guessing it would be the latter.

I think most of them would roll their eyes at the question.

Eldo not spicy? Isn't this a huge part of the allure? I was exaggerating- it isn't half the climbs, but a lot. Certainly not all falls are clean above bomber gear...I must have been climbing at the wrong place.

"What is wrong with climbing risk-free?" This was a question to Healyje who seems to just plain have a fundamental problem with someone climbing without risk (which again I don't agree sport climbing is). If the cost is a few bolts on FACES (not cracks) then I think it is worth it. And so do the masses he abhors.

I certainly wasn't trying to piss on the history of any route or climbing area. Some routes and areas do stand as testament to history. However, are we bound forever by the past and never able to adapt to the present times?

Ken Cangi wrote: Not one. All of these climbers (the Hubers, Glowacz, Hill, Caldwell, Sjong, Skinner, and on and on) are/were sport climbers.

Wow Ken...you know all the climbers who have freeclimbed El Cap? How many would that be?

And Jay, why does Freerider not count as freeing El Cap? Too easy for you?

Jim Herson, Dean Potter, Rob Miller, and Steph Davis are all what I would call trad climbers although I am sure they could all can pull down on sport too.

Kevin Stricker wrote: Wow Ken...you know all the climbers who have freeclimbed El Cap? How many would that be? And Jay, why does Freerider not count as freeing El Cap? Too easy for you? Jim Herson, Dean Potter, Rob Miller, and Steph Davis are all what I would call trad climbers although I am sure they could all can pull down on sport too.

Kevin, Why do you have to be a punk? I never said that I knew everyone who have freeclimbed El Cap, and that wasn't the point of my comment, as I'm sure you already know.

Sorry, Kev, but I'm not going there with you. The style argument is played out. I am trying to keep my comments in the context of climbing history. Go fight with Bob about style. My money is on him.

Bob D'Antonio wrote:Paul..you points are well taken and thought out...they don't fall deaf ears...except for Joe.

Given your unbridled support of Paul's paragraph which I quoted, and in the absence of any correction from you, I'm guessing when the shirts come off at 12 I'm going to see a bold "just don't clip'em" tat on your arm.

Bob D'Antonio wrote:Joe's name won't appear in the history of sportclimbing...or trad climbing either.

God knows that's why I climb Bob. I'm sure you'll be well represented in the history of climbing when you write it.

Bob D'Antonio wrote:As to Eldo... I think it it way safer now than when I started climbing there in the mid-70's...

Hard to get much more oblique than that...

Here's a good, albeit short, bit of climbing history (scroll down to Climbing History). This may be when & where hard climbing took-off in Europe. Note the ethics/bolting fight & what came after it.

Now don't go getting any ideas about new uses for oil & grease...

I believe I can push this thing into the 12 page realm with this point... which seemingly puts me in Healyje's Labrea Tarpit of Climbing:

Braxtons link, which is about Wolfgang, makes no mention of the various Yaniro 5.13's that were put up on gear (but not neccesarily in a Healyje "traditional" manner). They, as well as the Pheonix, were harder than the routes in the Frankenjura at the time.

We should get some mileage out of that.

Also, the various "trads" listed above do sport climb, they just try and hide it so as to keep up the image/nitch they have created to maintain sponsorship/status.

I think it is pretty funny that people have to identify with whatever 'sub-group' of climbing that is out there... I personally enjoy trad, sport, bouldering, alpine, gym, ice, buildering...(and I'm no great climber:) ) It only makes sense that any well rounded climber would have done some of each discipline, and you would expect that anyone freeing the hardest trad climbs would also have some amazing sport ability, and probably bouldering too!

It just seems silly to me to 'only climb sport' or 'only climb trad' or 'only go bouldering'--> aren't we all just climbers of rock?

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:I believe I can push this thing into the 12 page realm with this point... which seemingly puts me in Healyje's Labrea Tarpit of Climbing: Braxtons link, which is about Wolfgang, makes no mention of the various Yaniro 5.13's that were put up on gear (but not neccesarily in a Healyje "traditional" manner). They, as well as the Pheonix, were harder than the routes in the Frankenjura at the time. We should get some mileage out of that. Also, the various "trads" listed above do sport climb, they just try and hide it so as to keep up the image/nitch they have created to maintain sponsorship/status.

Dissing a dead Euro hero and notching down the affectations of hip American poster-children, all in one brief post. Good work Lightner! :)

And right on Tevis!

EDIT: Though it's a joke, "dissing" is a poor word choice. "Putting in context" is more accurate, but try using that as a punchline :)

Tevis Blom wrote:It only makes sense that any well rounded climber would have done some of each discipline,

YES! This has been the guiding principle of my climbing "career."

Mike Lane wrote: "I put up bolted routes designed for children and beginning climbers; in an appropriate area where this does not infringe upon other people's experiences. And in the end more will people will connect with nature via my way than yours."

While Mike has been putting in some moderate sport climbs, I have been successfully seeking out some FA trad leads that I've been establishing on adjacent crags in the same area.

This is an area that is known foremost for its sport climbs (and it is one of the better sport areas in Colorado in my opinion).

In no way do I feel that adjacent sport climbs are a detriment to my onsight trad leads. On the contrary. I feel that the mix of rad and trad makes for a better, more complete climbing area.

There is plenty of room for both of us. Maybe when I get my fill of trad climbing, I'll pull out my drill and work a new sport line.

It's all good.

By the way, I am so cool because I place my own gear from the ground up, and I am so rad because I clip bolts. Double your pleasure, double your fun. Try it both ways. It can double your chances of getting a date!

Brovo Tom !

Good post, however remember that here in Colorado,
Utah, New mexico, and Wyoming the dynamics of the
issue are somewhat different in the fact that there
is almost limitless, lifetimes of 1st accent potential
still left here. Some have access issues, some not.
So It's easy to agree with your perspective, given our
abundance of rock here.

Shawn Mitchell wrote: Dissing a dead Euro hero and notching down the affectations of hip American poster-children, all in one brief post. Good work Lightner! :) And right on Tevis!

Shawm M... I hope you were joking and that everyone recognizes I was not dissing Wolfgang Gullich... just pointing out that his 5.13a was not establshed prior to Yaniro, which was done on gear.

Tevis... I've been saying that every few pages here... why do we have to be classified... why can't we just "be".

Absolutely, Sam. I hope so as well and sorry if it wasn't clear. I was just having fun with your provocative push for 5.12, I mean page 12. There's not really a "dis" in having someone get to 5.13 before you.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote: why do we have to be classified... why can't we just "be"

Seems to me it's all Ego.

EDIT: welcome to page 11...

EDIT EDIT: looks like somebody modified their post and now this is at the end of p.10

Ken Cangi wrote: Kevin, Why do you have to be a punk? I never said that I knew everyone who have freeclimbed El Cap, and that wasn't the point of my comment, as I'm sure you already know. Sorry, Kev, but I'm not going there with you. The style argument is played out. I am trying to keep my comments in the context of climbing history. Go fight with Bob about style. My money is on him.

Just thought I would point out that you were talking out your ass....again.

A few more "Trad" climbers who have freed El Cap: Steve Schneider, Leo Holding, Chris Van Leuven (sp?), Ivo Ninov, Cedar Wright. I am guessing they all consider themselves climbers ( except maybe Leo, he has pretty strong opinions on ethics).

BTW I am not really trying to say anything about style, just that you don't have to be a 5.14 sport climber to freeclimb El Cap.

Also I just consider myself a climber, but I do have a traditional ethic when it comes to establishing routes....To each his own.

Kevin Stricker wrote: Just thought I would point out that you were talking out your ass....again. A few more "Trad" climbers who have freed El Cap: Steve Schneider, Leo Holding, Chris Van Leuven (sp?), Ivo Ninov, Cedar Wright. I am guessing they all consider themselves climbers ( except maybe Leo, he has pretty strong opinions on ethics). BTW I am not really trying to say anything about style, just that you don't have to be a 5.14 sport climber to freeclimb El Cap. Also I just consider myself a climber, but I do have a traditional ethic when it comes to establishing routes....To each his own.

It's funny that Jay, myself, and several others had no problem understanding the context of our conversation, but that you can't. You are clearly bright enough to get it, so I can only assume that you are filtering what we said as a lame excuse to throw jabs.

Fight with yourself, Kevin; I'm not interested. It's pretty pathetic that this stuff is so important to you that you feel the need to start shit with people without provocation.

My point on the history was just that Sport Climbing was more of a recreational persuit for most of the participants, and most could care less about it's history. Sorry to say Bob, but outside of a few people who like reading more than they like doing no one is even going to remember who did the FA of Bullet in 20 years.

As for cutting edge routes...it is hard to say because no one will repeat them but I am pretty sure I have put up the hardest routes on Sunshine Wall, Block Tower, and Sunshine Dome. Maybe you should go try them and tell me what you think.

Ken Cangi wrote: It's funny that Jay, myself, and several others had no problem understanding the context of our conversation, but that you can't. You are clearly bright enough to get it, so I can only assume that you are filtering what we said as a lame excuse to throw jabs. Fight with yourself, Kevin; I'm not interested. It's pretty pathetic that this stuff is so important to you that you feel the need to start shit with people without provocation.

OK Ken..what exactly does tham mean? You said NO ONE had freed ElCap that wasn't a pro sportclimber..I pointed out you were wrong. Guess you can't admit you don't know what the fck you are talking about can you?