History of Sport Climbing?

Joey Wolfe wrote:If sport climbing is about movement over rock/the fun of it, then some traditionally protected climbs could be considered "Trad-Sport". Stay with me here.....T-Wall for example is not about adventure climbing ethic of exploring and getting to the top so much as just fun climbing.

I think this is really a sharp observation. In that context, places like T-Wall have more in common with a sport crag like Foster Falls than with, say, Laurel Knob. Though T-Wall and Laurel Knob are both trad areas, there's a world of difference in the character of the place and the climbing -- and (maybe most importantly) the kind of climbers they attract.

So I can't really see any reason for healyje to be so worked up about the supposed legions of gym gumbies and sport weenies. Those guys are never going to show up in the remote bold FA territories that climbers like healyje care most about.

JL

After all the work we've put into developing this thread, and the traditions we've established...where does Saxfiend get off waltzing in to blow his horn at the TOP OF THE PAGE!? It's just not right.

Friggin' sport poster.

PS: I'm still mulling, Metro. (while I should be working)

Not So Famous Old Dude wrote:Well, I'm not a Hemingway expert, but I hope that folks are not implying that Hemingway was just a writer sitting in an ivory tower criticizing others who took real risks. From what I've read, he had a long history of putting himself in harm's way, especially in the early part of his career.

John Huston and Hemmingway both served as ambulance drivers in the Spanish Civil War if I am not mistaken. In Huston's autobiography, he told the story of how one day they took fire from some unknown assailants and both dove into a shallow ditch. The ditch was not deep enough to hide in, so Hemmingway got most of his upper body into it but comically projected his rear into the air. Huston thought this was so funny, that he snapped a picture of it, enraging the pretentious tough-guy and threatening his hardman image.

Shawn Mitchell wrote:After all the work we've put into developing this thread, and the traditions we've established...where does Saxfiend get off waltzing in to blow his horn at the TOP OF THE PAGE!? It's just not right. Friggin' sport poster.

Hey man, back off -- I established that post GROUND UP!!

jl

Tim Stich wrote: John Huston and Hemmingway both served as ambulance drivers in the Spanish Civil War if I am not mistaken. In Huston's autobiography, he told the story of how one day they took fire from some unknown assailants and both dove into a shallow ditch. The ditch was not deep enough to hide in, so Hemmingway got most of his upper body into it but comically projected his rear into the air. Huston thought this was so funny, that he snapped a picture of it, enraging the pretentious tough-guy and threatening his hardman image.

That's one way to get your "ass shot off" in a war.

T Wall was my outdoor Trad Gym!

I agree with Saxfiend, Laurel Knob is more in line with traditional climbing, with minimal bolts and utilizing natural features for anchors...

T Wall before the bolt anchors were placed at the tops of popular climbs (due to fire/beetle Kill) it was much less of a popular area - because of the knowledge it took to build anchors.

Basically what I think this boils down to is knowledge and the want to expand personal limitations. While I have climbed several difficult sport climbs, I have been more challenged on route finding and gear placements that traditional climbing offer...

doug s wrote:T Wall was my outdoor Trad Gym! I agree with Saxfiend, Laurel Knob is more in line with traditional climbing, with minimal bolts and utilizing natural features for anchors... T Wall before the bolt anchors were placed at the tops of popular climbs (due to fire/beetle Kill) it was much less of a popular area - because of the knowledge it took to build anchors. Basically what I think this boils down to is knowledge and the want to expand personal limitations. While I have climbed several difficult sport climbs, I have been more challenged on route finding and gear placements that traditional climbing offer...

Do they still close T-Wall for turkey hunts? I remember driving 3 hours from B-ham and getting shut down a few times, having to divert to Sunset because of that.

Anyhoo, I think that the sport climbing (definition: bolted routes) kicks in once folks want to push beyond 5.10 consistently. Then it really helps to sport climb a lot because you can get so many routes of consistent difficulty done in much less time. If you want to climb 5.11 and 5.12 trad, then you should train by sport climbing at that level. That's a whole lot easier than trying to get there by doing multi-pitch trad, especially since you might have to climb three pitches of 5.8 or 5.9 to get to the one crux pitch and then it's a handful of moves. But you can find plenty of sport routes that will give you move after move in the 5.10-5.11 rqnge then throw a 5.12 crux sequence at you in the middle, or worse, right before the anchors.

Bob D'Antonio wrote: Tim...Hemingway was born in 1899...the Spanish war started in 1898...I think.

I think you're thinking of the Spanish-American war, Bob, which broke out in 1898, shortly after Americans saw the first Euros in lycra, and the Spaniards first sighted American mullets. Blood lust at first sight on both sides.

The Spanish civil war was about 1936 to 1939 and pitted commie sport climbers against Franco's fascist tradsters.

Edit: So, further to NSFOD's point, Papa H was pretty serious about getting in the arena, paddling to the Old Country to do it.

Also, clicked on the link to your New Mexico route Bob. Classic name!

Shawn Mitchell wrote: I think you're thinking of the Spanish-American war, Bob, which broke out in 1898, shortly after Americans saw the first Euros in lycra, and the Spaniards first sited American mullets. The Spanish civil war was about 1936 to 1939 and pitted commie sport climbers against Franco's fascist tradsters.

Yeah, and they rounded up the tradsters and threw them all off the top of a cliff.

Hemingway was an ambulance driver in WWI then covered the Spanish Civil War as a journalist.

Also, in the interests of furthering the hijack (sort of), I've always thought that Hemingway saw and experienced enough true courage in human beings that he felt entitled to be critical of cowardice or the "phony tough" (thanks to Full Metal Jacket). I was left with the impression that he held some matadors and certain tricks in the arena in disdain because he felt they dishonored the true matadors. This goes back to Shawn's Teddy R. quote. So, in a way, it may be that Hemingway was judging from Teddy's perspective. He may have been pretentious, I don't know. But one thing is for sure -he could write convincingly about courage.

BULLY!

Huston was just well aware of Hemingway's image, so he delighted in busting his balls.

Tim Stich wrote:Huston was just well aware of Hemingway's image, so he delighted in busting his balls.

...or baring his ass, so to speak.

Any fun plans for the weekend, Tim? Yes, I'm the gadfly at the party that wants everyone to talk about their weekend. In the interest of relevance...Sport or Trad?

Anyone...anyone...?

Not So Famous Old Dude wrote: Do they still close T-Wall for turkey hunts? I remember driving 3 hours from B-ham and getting shut down a few times, having to divert to Sunset because of that.

Yeah, almost every weekend in April.

John,

Love the Laurel Knob reference. Good juxtaposition of so called "trad" areas in the south.Very different feel there(LK) altogether.

Places like T-wall, and Laurel Knob have made me rethink about terms like "trad" and "sport" and what they mean or don't mean to me.

Joey Wolfe wrote: Yeah, almost every weekend in April. John, Love the Laurel Knob reference. Good juxtaposition of so called "trad" areas in the south.Very diferent feel there(LK) altogether.

Pony up, Joey. You climbing this weekend?

Bob D'Antonio wrote:...is fun and with very good protection...just like a lot of the new routes being done.

i.e. just another risk-free, suburban, entertainment option which supports hordes of people within 'climbing' who otherwise wouldn't be climbing tomorrow. Sorry, I'm unabashedly and unapologetically against the proliferation, promotion, and sale of risk-free 'climbing' to the masses. You may like every rock within a three hour drive of every metropolitain area being bolted and overrun by such 'climbers'. And along with it all, there is now no doubt the great commercial opportunities that go along with the ego strokes associated with being a major promoter, developer, and publisher with this fast-growing end of the 'sport'. Hell, you can even coach your local high school climbing team these days as well.

Hemmingway? Hemmingway would think it was totally pedestrian - and he'd be right.

Shawn Mitchell wrote: Pony up, Joey. You climbing this weekend?

Yep. Sunset Park, Tn on Sunday. I got a score to settle.

Healyje, I'm probably crazy but didn't you at one time work for a climbing company? I thought i had read that some were in here.

Well settle and send, Joey!

How about you, Healyje. Adventures in the Columbia River Gorge? Say, no wonder you smiled about sailboarding's collapse. That place is thick with 'em! Like Josh at Christmas.

Healyje wrote: I'm unabashedly and unapologetically against the proliferation, promotion, and sale of risk-free 'climbing' to the masses.

I'm pretty sure every single piece of gear sold or advice purchased comes with that very specific three word disclaimer "CLIMBING IS DANGEROUS."

Granted that's probably just boilerplate anti-indemnification crap...

Bob D'Antonio wrote: No wonder you are so angry... your local crag is a train infested choss pile.

LOL. Gentlemen, gentlemen!

Did you guys used to be friends? Is this Bachar and Kauk, the first generation?