History of Sport Climbing?

Shawn Mitchell wrote:Another thought... If Hemmingway observed there are only three true sports: mountain climbing, motor racing, and bull fighting, while all the rest are games--would Papa have called this branch of the sport "Game climbing?"

Hemingway (my favorite author by the way) probably would have considered sport climbing a cheat, much the same way he seemed to detest matators who used various tricks of technique to avoid taking the highest, most pure form of risk during a pass, and how he was disgusted by the dulling of the bulls horns to make them less dangerous.

But then again, I get the impression that Hemingway only railed against these practices when they were foisted upon the audience as "the real thing." Sport climbers make no pretense about the fact that they are bolting to make the climb safer.

Not So Famous Old Dude wrote: Hemingway (my favorite author by the way) probably would have considered sport climbing a cheat, much the same way he seemed to detest matators who used various tricks of technique to avoid taking the highest, most pure form of risk during a pass, and how he was disgusted by the dulling of the bulls horns to make them less dangerous. But then again, I get the impression that Hemingway only railed against these practices when they were foisted upon the audience as "the real thing." Sport climbers make no pretense about the fact that they are bolting to make the climb safer.

"Death in the Afternoon", a great read. i highly recomend it if anyone wants to know more about what NSFOD is talking about.

chris deulen wrote:...and maybe smoke a bowl or two.

I think most people in these forums could benefit from a couple of these.

Oh yeah, and "Sport Climbing is Neither."

--Marc

Bob D'Antonio wrote: Funny..,your description of Hemingway is like a lot of old tradsters...sitting around in the stands and bitching about how things should be done by others but not putting their own ass on the line.

Oh dear, Bob, you *know* you were inviting this:

It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly...who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at best, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

--Teddy Roosevelt

But it's true. Hats off to the men and women who put up good routes, of whatever school!

Hmmm... sorry, but have to ramble off topic just a little. You've all got me thinking real hard and it hurts.

I got into this thing without a clue about 15 years ago - just me and some goof ball friends blundering in our keds up by Windy Point. Nowadays we call these types "annoying kids" and they are part of the inspiration to go find less accessible lines. Anyway, soon enough one of us found out that there was a better way to do this - it involved using "gear" and "rope" to make "death" less likely, and many doors were thrown open. The different styles (trad/sport) didn't have any relevance to us until we got older and laid up with injuries and were forced to read books about climbing instead of climbing through the pain. The decades old debate made interesting reading, but why should we give a crap either way? This is merely to illustrate one guy's POV - not really old school, but I will be one day.

It has always seemed to me that bolts were best placed on faces that took no nuts/cams/etc., and the term "sport" was applied to those bolted faces that were much harder than "trad" faces that could simply be run out and therefore did not call for bolting. So, to my understanding it is like bouldering with a top rope (thanks, NSFOD). Interesting then that bouldering grades start with a V0 being something equivalent to moves in the 5.10 range. I know there are many high grade trad lines out there, but where do they fall on the bell curve? Are the majority of harder lines bolted vs. trad, or is there a balance?

Regarding "trad" climbing - there is some irony in the application of the word tradition. In deference to the nuances of style, how many tradsters, in truly traditional fashion, are still sawing the legs off their wood stoves or using hemp rope for protection? Is it still traditional climbing when we use cutting edge technology? Will it be considred trad when we have nano-tech pro? In my dreams, I have little spider-steel wires that fuse themselves to the rock, worming between molecules of stone with an unbreakable grip that only I can release with the push of a button...

Maybe my kids will invent that shit. In the mean time I'll stick to the fun of stout clip-ups to push my limits and the practice of staying within my range leading trad so I (hopefully) never fall.

Well, I'm not a Hemingway expert, but I hope that folks are not implying that Hemingway was just a writer sitting in an ivory tower criticizing others who took real risks. From what I've read, he had a long history of putting himself in harm's way, especially in the early part of his career.

As far as Teddy's famous quote. I agree with this to a point. But, I also do not believe that I have to be an expert musician to know bad music when I hear it, or a famous artist to know poor painting when I see it.

I am arguing from a strictly academic point here - I'm not talking about sport climbing or bolting. I love sport climbing and respect the people who put up high quality routes.

Bob D'Antonio wrote:Don't you find it funny that the hardest "trad routes" in the world are established with sport climbing tactics. Really funny shit!

This is what is was trying to get at several post ago, but no one took the bait. It hurts so much when your shit starting post is overlooked ;) Well, maybe my example sucked.

Trying to stick to rigid definitions with something like climbing is a fool's game.

I think I'm leanin to the hubbel on-sight approach to climbing.

well, I'm off to bolt country club; it's become so out of character with the rest of the canyon, toodle-loo.

Mark Nelson wrote:I think I'm leanin to the hubbel on-sight approach to climbing. well, I'm off to bolt country club; it's become so out of character with the rest of the canyon, toodle-loo.

Mark,

I use to work for Pete and have his number right here in my phone if you want it. You should call him up, meet him, and tell him what you think about him.

or you could quit kicking a man on the internet for shit that happened a long time ago.

Bob D'Antonio wrote:Don't you find it funny that the hardest "trad routes" in the world are established with sport climbing tactics. Really funny shit!

This is why I think I like the idea of "sport climbing" being defined as an approach to climbing, not strictly as just climbing "bolted routes."

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:I'll say this again cus my joking around seemed to clutter it. The German term is Klettern Sport... I know that term predates our term of sport climbing.

Man, I hate it when that happens! Lightner cluttered his clever kletter claim about clipping, leaving the clicking climbers clueless.

Metro: Interesting post. You said a couple things I wanna quibble with, but a certain tradition enforced by my wife demands that I bill some hours doing real work. She's so old school! Maybe later dude.

Fair points too, NSFOD. I only take TR's quote at about 75% value. And yeah, Hemingway certainly entered the arena.

Joey, maybe more people'd take the bait if your picture weren't so...well, scary :) Is that Poe?

Mark, *chuckle* don't get too dusty, sweaty, bloody in the arena. Maybe see you tonight (?)

Thanks for the shout, Bob.

ah lighten up joey, it's just climbing

so taking the mindset to on-sighting is a bad thing?
don't really see where the problem is

Mark Nelson wrote:ah lighten up joey, it's just climbing

That would be way more appropriate if I said it to you.

Mark Nelson wrote:so taking the mindset to on-sighting is a bad thing? don't really see where the problem is

I might buy this if you hadn't made other mean spirited remarks about Pete in numerous other threads.

I may not agree with everything Pete has said and done(I disagree with him alot), but he was/is nothing but a solid bro to me. He hooked me up with a some work, some hand-me-down gear, and showed me some places he didn't put in his guide book soon after I came to Colorado.

So while I may have had too much coffee and probably should have let your lame quip go, I think i would have found your post less inflammatory if it actually had some real substance to it.

Shawn - I get the wife's old school work ethic thing. Hey, my wife is the one with a full time job in our house anyway. I just fly around the country and rig shows every few weeks. Talk about your lazy forum troller. Anyway, I look forward to your return. Quibble on, good man.

btw - Joey's NAMBLAesque mug can be seen in Max Cannon's comic, Red Meat.

metrozen wrote:Shawn - I get the wife's old school work ethic thing. Hey, my wife is the one with a full time job in our house anyway. I just fly around the country and rig shows every few weeks. Talk about your lazy forum troller. Anyway, I look forward to your return. Quibble on, good man. btw - Joey's NAMBLAesque mug can be seen in Max Cannon's comic, Red Meat.

dead on, google "Bug Eyed Earl"

Joey - it's only out of sheer love for the interaction he's had in my area that I quip.

Mark Nelson wrote:Joey - it's only out of sheer love for the interaction he's had in my area that I quip.

I'm aware, and if this was a P.H. thread I would have kept my mouth shut. Lord knows the guy would be out of a job in the PR market.

But it is not, neither are the other ones you've had your fun with.

I'll leave off at that, I have hijacked this thread enough today.

edit:Oh, crap.........who let Andy in here?
Andy, Gabe sent those pics of you at the Ironclads, I'm on my way to hit those up.