another Ethics/ Rout alteration question

I posted a question on a regional forum, and then decided that the general question as a whole may be interesting for everyone here.

mountainproject.com/v/south…

Basically, the question is if there is a loose block on a classic area climb that is a) unavoidable and b) potentially necessary for a climbable rout (the crux sequence begins on holds that require yarding on the block) should the block be removed? Glued on? left alone?

Discuss!

Oh and feel free to chime in on how to glue it or remove it or whatever

It sounds like a classic ROUTE for sure. Contact the FA before you do anything.

Nikolai Daiss-Fechner wrote:I posted a question on a regional forum, and then decided that the general question as a whole may be interesting for everyone here. mountainproject.com/v/south… Basically, the question is if there is a loose block on a classic area climb that is a) unavoidable and b) potentially necessary for a climbable rout (the crux sequence begins on holds that require yarding on the block) should the block be removed? Glued on? left alone? Discuss! Oh and feel free to chime in on how to glue it or remove it or whatever

Ken Cangi wrote: This isn't a recommendation - just a thought: I would rather endure an after-the-fact ethics debate than to have to hear that someone was killed by a knowingly loose boulder on a popular route.

My initial feeling is that if you think you can get some kind of tube behind the block to force glue back there, do some research on what the best adhesive would be and go that route. Now if pulling the block changes the route rating, this is a call the FA should make. However, call me crazy but i don't think FA approval should be required for a glue job on something like this. Prudent to contact the FA in either case...sure. But in the event that individual can't be reached, I would do the right thing. Which is act on your gut instinct which you have clearly shown to be 'fix the life-threatening hazard'.

I've seen the rant over and over how "climbing is inherently dangerous...", "we, as climbers, should be prepared to accept any risks...blah blah." and see/get the point. However, i also recently heard a story from a climber who narrowly missed being smeared by a refrigerator-sized block pulled loose during a multi pitch climb. A lucky bounce was the only thing that saved her. Escaping the event with large shoulder gashes from fragments from the bounce was her destiny. Try explaining the 'climbing is dangerous' rant to the family/partner of someone on the not-so-lucky end of such an event. Sure, it's frigging dangerous; no sheeot Sherlock! But doing what we can to keep the next party from all-out dying should come natural to any of us.

In closing, I would 2nd Ken's idea that living with an enduring ethics police flame fest is way better than living with regret for not having done something preventative.

I did some quick searching for adhesives that might work but didn't come up with much; sorry. I'll ask a couple people i know that may have some ideas on where to start. Maybe an email to 3M could be a good start? BTW am i the only one thinking this is a tough call (pull/glue) without a photo?

It would seem to me that first ascencionists usually take responsibility for cleaning a route of objective hazards i.e. loose rock. If they didn't do it, you probably should.

I don't live in the area now. I lived there last year. That's a classic, well traveled route. I don't think the loose block is all that loose, and the bay area has a large, experienced climbing community.

It appears that the very experienced MP community supprots your efforts to enhance this block (Hi Ken, say hi and best wishes on the hip to Alan for me and Jess). However, I posit that the loose block is perhaps not that loose, as evidenced by this route's popularity (I'd say 10 ascents a weekend in the season).

How experienced are you, Nikolai? No aggression here, but if you're asking for advice here it might be beneficial to know how competent you are at ascertaining the quality of rock.

Thanks for the responses guys. Daryl I appreciate the effort. I have contacted the author of the guide book for the area asking if he has the FAist's contact info. Tico- I totally understand questioning my experience. To answer it, I can only say that I have cleaned a few (2) new routes and have 5 years sport experience and 1 year of trad. I agree that the route can get 10+ ascents per week in the summer, and I have been climbing it for a few years. I just seemed looser to me than it used to. The crack visibly expanded when I pulled on it and it shifts ever so slightly. I will try to get someone with more experience to look at it. BTW if anyone knows David Caunt (FAist) in the SF bay area, please let me know. I will attempt to get pictures soon!

Good info from a number of folks. If it is going to kill someone and it gets climbed a ton clean it now. So what if the route changes. Holds break. I saw one of the crux holds on a 13- Smith classic crumble two weeks ago. The slightly concerned locals said "we had been meaning to glue that". Two days later I watched another local that had heard about the change cruise that section and the route and declare it was only a letter harder. No big deal.

When we put up new routes we try to clean anything that we think could kill or maim folks. If a hold seems critical to maintaining a grade I might glue it as I am not a fan of one move wonders. Also if a large flake can't be pried off with a long crow bar but still sounds funky I use Simpsons anchor adhesive to reinforce it. Once I did a couple of glued in threaded rods to ensure a flake stayed on. I only do this if the route is cool enough to warrant the effort. The Simpsons is pricey but if it will hold glue in anchors that hold up buildings up I figure it will hold a flake. The problem is that the surfaces must be clean and dry which they never are so I use a lot of adhesive and make sure to smear it around on the surfaces to be glued a lot to clean off the loose dirt and stuff. Doing a nice job so it doesn't look glued is an art that takes practice. All in all gluing is nasty business and I avoid it at all costs.

Two part epoxy in the double syringe doesn't seem to last that long.

If it is a block, I would say send it on to the next phase of it's existence- a part of the slopes below, I am sure it won't mind all that much, and might enjoy the change of scenery. Climbing is dangerous enough without time bombs on well traveled routes. It happens all the time. Freeze/thaw, general use, or FA parties that thought the thing would stand the test of time. If it concerns you enough to post, you are obviously concerned about the general safety of other climbers, which you should be. Pull that sucker out if it needs to be done, before you pull it out of your buddies forehead. JJ

I agree with Jeremy. Just last year I pulled a huge loose piece of a classic Route at Devil's Lake. I too asked before I pulled it, only to avoid future problems. I pulled it because it could literally come off on one good pull and land on someones chest, killing them. I pictured that as soon as I grabbed it. Then I thought, I should really pull this thing off. When I did, all it took was some slight pressure and that piece went straight to the ground. Must have weighed a couple hundred pounds too.

That being said, if it is life threatening, pull it as soon as you can. It isn't worth someones life or limb.