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If you can TR a sport route you can lead it. So lead everything.

Original Post
1Eric Rhicard · · Tucson · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 10,101

I noticed in some MP.coms peoples profiles that people say they can sport lead 5.10 and follow 5.11. Does that mean you can yard your way up an 11 if you are on TR, or that you can cleanly climb it.

I say that if you can follow it on TR even with hangs or falls then lead it. That is the beauty of sport climbing.

I really get annoyed when my normal but irrational fear of falling on a fat bolt, with a fat rope, a good belayer and nothing to hit keep me from climbing at my limit. Learning to overcome that irrational fear was the single most important aspect of climbing at my limit and having more fun doing it.

SAL · · broomdigiddy · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 790

You know what i find funny about following profiles is the aid :)
following C3 or A4 is not very hard when you are just jugging.

I think some people just need the confidence to lead a route even if bolted. They dont have the piece of mine knownig that a fall would equal more then just rope stretch. But yeah. If you can lead 5.10 sport but can follow 5.12 that is just sillyness. Yarding. pulling and hanging would not mean your following in good style. It just means you can get your ass to the top by some means.

Mikeco · · Highlands Ranch CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 0

Agree. It is very important to try to lead at your limit, even on trad gear. The mental conditioning you get from being under the pressure of a lead fall when climbing at your limit, yet trying anyway really goes a long way in building a better, more confident climber.

Obviously, we need to use some common sense, though to avoid getting hurt.

James Beissel · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 905
SAL wrote:You know what i find funny about following profiles is the aid :) following C3 or A4 is not very hard when you are just jugging.
I can't stay awake long enough to belay anything harder than that.
SAL · · broomdigiddy · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 790
James Beissel wrote: I can't stay awake long enough to belay anything harder than that.
Ha! agreed :) Lord bless the gri-gri!!
But would you consider following C3 anything different then cleaning C1?

Sorry Eric,
No more aid talk. not trying to get off subject. :)
Mikeco · · Highlands Ranch CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 0
SAL wrote: Ha! agreed :) Lord bless the gri-gri!! But would you consider following C3 anything different then cleaning C1? Sorry Eric, No more aid talk. not trying to get off subject. :)
Hook traverse?
SAL · · broomdigiddy · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 790
Not So Famous Old Dude wrote: Hook traverse?
Self Lower out?
Rather then follow the section on hooks.
James Beissel · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 905

If you can TR a route, you can solo it.

Mikeco · · Highlands Ranch CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 0
Jed Pointer wrote:Thinking you can lead anything that you can TR says to me that it's you who is not pushing yourself. Pulling up the rope, clipping, using different rests, thinking about your safety, etc, accounts for quite a bit of energy that can be focused on just pulling when you are on TR. Sure - lead everything if you want to get better, but there's still a difference worth a letter or two and most profiles here show that.
This is quite true, especially for less experienced leaders (not implying that's you, of course, okay?). However, I've found that my best technical climbing is done on lead. My technique, reasoning, and energy conservation are all heightened. I don't really find I climb any harder on TR than lead.
Tom Hanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 950

If you can vizualize a route, you've already climbed it.
So what's the point?

Brad Brandewie · · Estes Park · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 2,931
Not So Famous Old Dude wrote: My technique, reasoning, and energy conservation are all heightened. I don't really find I climb any harder on TR than lead.
I agree with this. I may climb something that is rated harder on TR but I probably climb "better" (technically speaking) when I am leading.

I also think it is ok to say you only follow C3 even though you are just jugging. For me at least, I don't want to belay on a C5 pitch. I don't even want to be around if someone is leading C5. That shit would be too dangerous for me to want to be involved. That being said, I don't know of any C5 pitches that exist... and I can only think of one C4 pitch off the top of my head.
Christian H. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 0
Tom Hanson wrote:If you can vizualize a route, you've already climbed it. So what's the point?
Damn right get on with the roast pig and the beer.
James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Tom Hanson wrote:If you can vizualize a route, you've already climbed it. So what's the point?
I believe this type of ascent is considered a "mootpoint" which is great way to climb. The term moot point might be used in the following sentence:

"I just redpointed this 10b, which means that I've also mootpointed every route at this crag 10a and below."
climber73 · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 185

Eric,

Good for you that you're over your irrational fear of falling while leading sport routes with fat bolts, etc.

I find that I can focus on the climbing and the movement with no fear while toproping and just enjoy the climb. We were out cragging last week and I lead some 5.9 and 5.10 sport routes and felt pretty comfortable. There was an 11d that I would not have tried had it not been convenient to set up on TR. I would not have just walked up and lead the thing... instead I TRed it, got it on the 3rd try, and had a blast! I generally TR harder than I lead, even to the point where I'll try just about anything on TR. What is wrong with that? I don't believe I'm in the minority.

Maybe leading a little below my limit is part of my trad mentality. Trying to plug gear at your limit is pretty freaking difficult... but sooo rewarding when you pull it off!!

As for aid, I don't want to follow anything that I don't think I could work my way through if I absolutely had to. Maybe it's goofy, but I'd rather be a little conservative.

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
James M Schroeder wrote: I believe this type of ascent is considered a "mootpoint" which is great way to climb.
LOL
Do you get the credit for coming up with that? Brilliant!

You know how there's times when you look up at a so-so route, and feel pretty much non-plus about trying it? Now you can just state "I'm doing the mootpoint on this", and move on to the beer. Just what I needed.
Shirtless Mike · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 5,839

I feel this is definitely true for sport climbing, in general if you can TR your way up it without your belayer pulling you up it you can lead it.

Also many steep sport climbs are actually harder to TR, as unclipping is harder than clipping and once you fall off it can be difficult / impossible to get back on. Also from expierence the starts of steep routes can be pretty dangerous to TR.

Many people I know would climb alot harder if they would lead what they can TR.

Trad for me is a different story and I keep about 2 # grades between my hardest trad leads versus sport leads for everything but pure cracks with perfect pro.

Sam Lightner, Jr. · · Lander, WY · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,732

I can't believe you guys are saying this... When it gets real hard, clinging on long enough to make the clips is a major part of the ascent. Unclipping is much faster than pulling up the rope and clipping a piece. Its not the mental side, its the physical side.

Mikeco · · Highlands Ranch CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 0
Jed Pointer wrote:Again, it just says to me you guys are not pushing yourself hard enough if you can say you lead better than you TR. The simple physics of pulling extra lbs of draws and a rope hanging from your harness and being forced to stop and clip are worth a whole lot at your limit. This is well known. Also, most of the discussion here is on the mental aspects and that you have to jump on lead and be scared or "heightened" or something before you can make yourself awake enough to climb well. That sounds like an unrelated weakness to me. There's definitely some ego in those statements too, I think, saying you climb better under pressure, or solo better in lightning storms or whatever BS.
No, for me there are many years of experience and self-examination behind my statements. You are taking this too personally. Nobody is trying to insult the folks who prefer to lead below their technical limit.

There are people whose head is better on lead than on toprope (if protection is adequate) and I am one of them. That's not arrogance, it's just the way we are wired. Maybe it's a control issue or something, not sure. I do know that when I am following a very exposued pitch, I am much more nervous than when leading the same pitch. Something about swinging out into space if I fall, versus falling straight down. So maybe it is a "weakness" but good lord, if I have to have a weakness, I'd rather have it be one that makes me more confident on lead. I certainly wouldn't reverse the situation.

I also don't figure things out as well on top rope. I miss obvious holds and sequences. Why? I don't know. Probably because I'm not as in touch with the rock. I don't absolutely have to figure out the most effective, least fatiguing way to make move, so I don't and then next thing you know I'm in a position that leads to a fall.

So, you may be right. Maybe my weakness is TR, not lead. I need to get out there and push myself more on TR, I guess.

Really? Naw. Just give me the rack and put me on belay.
Mikeco · · Highlands Ranch CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 0

Now this has got me thinking. When I TR, I also often find myself pushing a bad body position because there is no penalty for failure. But if I'm leading it, I will reverse that and try something new. Yep, that exhausts you and can lead to a fall on lead. But, because of the training that gives me (strength and technique), my onsight ability keeps getting better and keeps closing the gap with my TR ability. Over time, I think that is exactly what has happend to me, and I think it's what Eric is getting at with his post.

This would be an interesting exercise: go through all the profiles and link years of climbing experience with the gap between lead and follow ratings. My expectation would be, if people have accurately rated themselves, that the gap between lead versus TR ratings tends to get narrower with increasing years of experience.

Kenneth Noisewater · · San Diego · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 10

I am inclined to agree with Sam. Being able to TR you're project (sport or trad) does not mean you should therefore be able to lead it, simply due to the effort involved with placing gear or QDs vs. unclipping the rope.

However, for me, when projecting at my limit the TR send is a key step in the process. Once I get the TR send I know I am close and should be one or two tries from the "redpoint".

YDPL8S · · Santa Monica, Ca. · Joined Aug 2003 · Points: 540

Not So Dude, it's the same with me, when I'm leading something hard, I'm so fully engrossed in not coming off that I am totally paying attention to the rock - groking it, as it were. When I'm following something hard, I'm not paying attention as much and mostly thinking "how in the hell did he lead this?", next thing I know, I'm being spit off that sucker like sunflower seed.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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