simul climbing

for the connector, I'd go with 2 large lockers opposed.

For the purpose of comparing strengths of 2 knot configs (which were terminal knots, instead of mid-line):

"high-strength bowline" -- I'll try and get a pic linked.

Here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubl…

I'm thinking 70%-75% is more toward the single -- I'll see if I can find the results of the double, they were closer to 80%. I think I also may have results on the butterfly. It may take more time to find.

Though, in looking at this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowli…

This looks to me basically as a double-bowline. So we could compare the mid-line strength better. However, that in-line characteristic doesn't look like it's there with the bowline bight.

This thread reminds me of a hair-raising story that happened to a friend of mine in Tuolumne when he and his buddy were simul-climbing a hard 5.10 route there. He ran out of gear placements except for one sketchy nut and ended out having to run it out above like half a ropelength above said sketchy nut... Whew! Neither of them fell, but it sure sounded like a sticky situation.

brenta wrote:As for the bowline, I'm often confused on what people call the variants. The bowline on a bight uses two strands--the bight--but is tied as a simple bowline. I've seen it referred as triple bowline. I've seen double bowline used to refer to a rewoven bowline.

Here's one of the B-on-a-B's:

animatedknots.com/bowlinebi…

I'm also confused by the names of the variants. The "B-on-a-B" that I learned is a variant of what's shown in the link: a regular bowline tied with a bight, as brenta mentioned (seems pretty obvious eh?). You end up with three loops instead of two. Maybe this is the "triple B-on-a-B"...?

BTW, it's a pretty cool web site...

"Triple B-on-a-B":

triple bowline on a bight

Richard Radcliffe wrote:BTW, it's a pretty cool web site...

'very' cool site Rich ~ also listed on one of Mark's links gives a cool "Spanish" Verision of the Bowline

I started scrambling yesterday when brenta mentioned this knot *gasp* (i've been in a knot-rut)

Another link with Bowline variations: layhands.com/Knots/Index.htm ~ This could be a whole'nother thread on knots

Just simul-climbed the last 3 on Ruper's in Eldo this weekend. With enough gear and long runners (and some runouts on comfortable ground) it was 250ft of pure fun. It also saved at least one belay and some daylight.

I am going to dig out the ropeman and take it on our next long alpine climb... hopefully this weekend. Great thread.

One thing I was thinking of while reading this thread is upward pull on the ropeman / intermediary belay device. It seems that the piece that the ropeman is attached to should be solid for pulls in upward (for resistance pulling the rope through) and downward direction... ie a solid cam in a horizontal.

Oh.. and butterfly gets my vote for tying into the center of the rope.

climber73 wrote: Oh.. and butterfly gets my vote for tying into the center of the rope.

Second time in this thread the butterfly has been cited for middle-point tie-in but I am having trouble picturing the connection to the harness. Do you use a carabiner or two? As I remember it, the butterfly gives you a loop (which can be put around your waist but that's too old school)or clipped to the belay loop or....

Gilroy wrote: Second time in this thread the butterfly has been cited for middle-point tie-in but I am having trouble picturing the connection to the harness. Do you use a carabiner or two? As I remember it, the butterfly gives you a loop (which can be put around your waist but that's too old school)or clipped to the belay loop or....

I'm talking about clipping in (use two if you'd like, that's certainly safer). But through the harness, not just the belay loop.

Not So Famous Old Dude wrote: I'm talking about clipping in (use two if you'd like, that's certainly safer). But through the harness, not just the belay loop.

Cool. S'what I figured.

Steel will always be rated for more unless its a small diameter. The omega steel

( omegapac.com/op1s38l.html) is rated 65kn on long axis and 12kn side axis. This is more enough even if you cross load the heck out of it. as far as a visual here is a picture.


-Jesse

Guy Humphrey wrote:I have used Tibloc for simul-climbing in the Flatirons for a number of years without any issues. The Tibloc is rated up to a fall factor 1 without damaging the rope. It would be difficult to generate a greater than fall factor 1 on low angle terrain, if the extra rope in the system is minimized. The type of biner used on the Tibloc is very important. I always use a oval biner on a quick draw. This will help the rope run smoothly. I once used an asymmetric wire biner in a pinch on the North Chimney. I got 30ft above the device and it locked up. :(

Have YOU ever fallen on it?
It wouldn't do any damage until weighted...without setting it manually.
It might be rated to hold a factor one fall, but that is only when it's used correctly. Which is NOT what is happening here.
The Tibloc has to be "set" on the rope to work correctly and not damage the rope.

josh

brenta wrote: True. They need to be set to minimize the chance of sheath damage. Another reason why it is essential to have the rope go through the biner and to carefully manage slack. On the other hand, the Ropeman adds more friction, and if the leader fell on it, it would be very bad. The fall would be either on the axle of the Ropeman, which is not as strong as a biner, or, worse, on a flange, which would act as a sharp edge. Because of that, you better use separate biners to clip the Ropeman and to protect the leader. The extra biner compounds the problem that the Ropeman is significantly heavier than the Tibloc, takes more time to set up, and adds further friction to the system.

The weight of the rope man vs. the weight of the tibloc is a non issue. If a few oz's is a concern you shouldn't be simul climbing the route.

Falling on the tibloc eihter as a leader OR a follower WILL have you falling onto a sharp edge....TEETH actually.

One other thing....simul climbing is NOT a beginner technique.
Adding a ropeman etc, to the system kick's it up another notch.
Simul climbing is extra dangerous for the entire team. Please do it with the great care.

josh

J. Thompson wrote:Falling on the tibloc eihter as a leader OR a follower WILL have you falling onto a sharp edge....TEETH actually.

Josh, I'm not sure we are talking about the same setup. A leader's fall on a properly rigged Tibloc will not engage the teeth at all.

J. Thompson wrote: Have YOU ever fallen on it? It wouldn't do any damage until weighted...without setting it manually. It might be rated to hold a factor one fall, but that is only when it's used correctly. Which is NOT what is happening here. The Tibloc has to be "set" on the rope to work correctly and not damage the rope. josh

Neither the Tibloc or the Ropeman is recommended by the manufacturer as a simul-climbing device. You need to understand the limitations of any device used outside its intended use. My second has never fallen on a Tibloc, and I don't plan on it.

When using a 9.5mm rope and an oval biner, I get zero slippage from a Tibloc. So I guess I don't understand your "setting it manually" statement. If you use a biner with a smaller diameter, all bets are off I guess. I am comfortable with the margin of safety the Tibloc provides for my application. (low angle climbing <5.7) I guess you are not...

Jesse Zacher wrote:The omega steel ( omegapac.com/op1s38l.html ) is rated 65kn on long axis and 12kn side axis. This is more enough even if you cross load the heck out of it.

Thanks! That's certainly a beefy carabiner. Note, though, that it is still the weakest link, and that for close to half the weight you can get two aluminum lockers each with 10 kN minor-axis strength. (For instance, two Petzl OK.)

Richard Radcliffe wrote:"Triple B-on-a-B":

Yes, thanks, that's exactly what I call "bowline on a bight." Wikipedia's "bowline on a bight" is my "rewoven bowline," because one can tie the same exact knot by first tying a simple bowline and then reweaving the working end through it. I've also checked FOTH, which calls my bowline on a bight "double bowline." Long and Gaines's Climbing Anchors agrees with Wikipedia, while Craig Luebben's Rock Climbing Anchors shows on pp. 222-223 yet another interpretation of what a bowline on a bight is.

brenta wrote: The bowline on a bight is tied so that it goes through your harness's tie in points. The locker is just for backup and, unlike the one you use with the eight, is in no danger of breaking because of cross-loading. Said otherwise, it's impractical to reweave an eight at mid-rope.

Hmmm, so I was going to ask why it's impractical to reweave an eight mid-rope, but I decided to tie into both knots and compare!

So I tied in with a figure 8 bight THROUGH my harness (as normal), and then tied in with a bowline on a bight. My observations: the 8 is much bulkier, and the 8 takes more rope (~1 foot more) than the bowline. So I assume this is why you find it impractical to reweave an eight at mid-rope! *Edit I tied the knots with 8.1mm rope*

I conceded victory, I'll try the bowline :-D

Hey Guy, when you say you see zero slippage does that mean you have actually fallen as a second while simulclimbing using a tibloc? I have seen slippage using them while just jumaring, so I find this comment hard to believe. I have also seen one invert against the rock and start abraiding the rope about 20 feet below me while simulclimbing. Like it was said, without actually setting these guys they tend to slip and a quick fall could easily shread your sheath.

Ropemen are not that much heavier, and can be set on the inside of the carabiner similar to a tibloc. They feed just as well if not better all in all a much better device for this situation....

The folded 8 tied through your harness is easy and fast and no need for a steel biner, but the knot does get big on ropes larger than 8mm.

Kevin Stricker wrote:Ropemen are not that much heavier, and can be set on the inside of the carabiner similar to a tibloc.

Kevin, of course they can, but aren't you worried that a leader's fall may cause the rope to fold over a flange rather than the biner?

For what it's worth, I heard about the use of a Tibloc while simuling from a guy who works at Petzl. He said that their athletes were using it to help protect themselves while simuling stuff. They carry a number of Tiblocs and place them on pieces immediately above cruxes for the second. Of course, Petzl would never advocate the use of the Tibloc in this way but he made it sound legit.

My wife and I simul frequently, on terrain up to 5.9 and the occasional 5.10 although it's usually more in the 5.8 and below category. We half our 70 meter rope and tie the second in with a "Yosemite-8" and a couple of lockers that are opposite and opposed. Sometimes we have the leader tie into the middle of the rope. The end that isn't tied into the second can be used as a trail line to haul up the gear that the second has cleaned, making it so that the two never have to meet up at a belay and only have to do a quick stop to haul up gear on the trail line, keeping things going.

One trick that we employ that works wonders is to have the second belay with a gri-gri. As the second climbs the gri-gri stays on the rope, connected to their harness. Then, he or she simuls normally, but can climb ahead, pulling in slack to reach a ledge where it's more comfortable. Then, the second can give a more proper belay if the leader is in a hard section. Since I'm usually the second, I'll often climb in quick, 20 to 40 foot sections, from ledge to ledge or stance to stance, "belaying" as I go with the gri-gri (pulling in slack, feeding slack, etc.) and then belaying more properly at the ledges/stances. Similarly, if the second is in a harder section, we'll have the leader stop and belay with a munter off a super solid piece, a bolt, or even a couple of pieces that have been quickly equalized.

Communication is always key, in my opinion. The second should inform the leader that they're in a harder section and to place more pieces or ask for a quick belay. Hence, why we climb with a halved rope, because trying to communicate from 230 feet away is not very easy.