Sketchy Leaders Always Show Up for Trade Routes Early

If your planning on casual climbing at a
major area on a weekend timing is everything.

Like the turkey perch at turkey rock will have
40 ppl at the bottom and all over the rock at 10:00am
it will often be deserted at 3:30pm...bring your headlamp,
we always forgot.

Michael McKinnon wrote: You seem to be the only one in this thread unable to graps that this is not a black and white issue. And, yes there are no absolutes. It is all a matter of perspective, you say " It is absolutely rude to push climbers from below. " Now, what is that party is dropping things on you? What if there is a murderer trying to get you from below? See how everything is in perspective? See how trying to see others people side of the argument makes everything that much easier to manage and lowers the outrage that you seem so intent on expressing at everyone.

M,
Are you kidding me? Murderers trying to get you from below? That's the best scenario you can come up with? LOL. This thread is now comedy. We're not talking about people dropping rocks or murderers trying to get you. We're talking about a Sunday in Eldo. Some climbers got up early to get on Yellow Spur. They had an epic. Other climbers that got there late and had to wait for them asked the question if those climber above having the epic were obligated in some way to bail, or let the climbers below pass them. That's the question. Correct? My answer to that is a definitive NO. They are not. They have no obligation to the climbers below them other than not to endanger their lives. No one's life was in danger. Mike I'm sure will attest to that. I'm not outraged. I'm disappointed that some people seem not to understand this established etiquette in outdoor climbing. Maybe it's a result of the climbing culture as it exists today. People go to sport crags or the gym and they climb all over each other, knocking each other around like bowling pins.

And Jed, whoever you are. I've made no personal attacks on anyone in any of the posts I've made on this topic. But now you're making comments about me personally? I was locked in a closet by authoritarian parents? I'm not even sure what it is you're trying to say, but I think I'm offended. I think you're trying to call me a newbie in some backhand way. But I've been climbing for 25 years in Boulder and elsewhere so that really doesn't wash. And what was the point of your post anyway? Obviously there are less passing issues on harder routes with all experienced climbers. But that's not what we've been talking about. That's not how this thread started. It's about a very popular route in Eldo. Let's just stick to the scenario as it played out. And keep your insulting remarks to yourself. I 'absolutely' guarantee that you would not insult me to my face.

Jed Pointer wrote:Agressively dismissing others is insulting. What's especially amusing is that not one person here has actually disagreed with your basic point. But then again, it must be hard to think clearly to the sound of a pounding keyboard as you type these trite sermons. "I 'absolutely' guarantee that you would not insult me to my face." Ah yeah, whatever. I'm sure you are as large as your posts are long and boring.

You get the final word Jed, my interest in this topic is over. I respect you. At least you don't post as 'anonymous coward'.
I'll buy you a beer at the Sun if we ever meet there. No hard feelings. You too Mike and Mike and whomever I may have incensed.
Ciao until the next inflammatory thread.

there seems to be a lot of contention in this thread, but one thing i'm sure we can all agree on is...

A lot of peeps seem to be making this an "either/or" discussion. I think that peeps are right, if you're there first you have the right of way, however with that "right" comes responsibility. That means if you're going to do something hard for you, PREPARE FOR IT.

Nobody is faulting someone who is being challenged, most of the complaints in this thread are about people who are WAY over their heads on a popular route.

-If you want to be first get up before everyone else.
-Prepare for the route you are going to do.
-If you want to flail miserably up something pick a route where you won't be ruining someone else's day.
-If it's clear you are going to struggle for longer than you thought, and a line is forming, maybe it's time to bail or ask for some help.

That seems pretty reasonable to me.

Greg DeMatteo wrote:That seems pretty reasonable to me.

i don't think anyone could have said it better greg. though a lot of people are getting very emotionally involved in this...discussion.

Just to throw some full on the fire. I don't know the details of either ascent, but I am guessing the people last weekend, even if there were in over there head and had to aid, still did the route in better "style" than Kor.

Well, I am definately not a "sketchy leader," but being a very early riser, I like to get to climbs early, as I don't like to wait in line like @ a gym, I like to be FIRST; especially being from NYC, and climbing @ the Gunks which can get super crowded. It is my experience that unless most climbers are doing something Alpin-ee, they will most likely not start climbing till after 9 am. The other side is having done a lot of climbing in NH on Cathedral & Whitehorse; guides would take their clients on the classics, so if you didn't get to the climb early better find another climb.

I think most of us at one time were "sketchy" leaders. We had to learn (hopefully, although not to sure most did) to be good, by experience & being taught. I can see your point as I hate to wait as well. I have backed off climbs due to slow parties ahead of me & pending weather. I like to be first, but I hate to be rushed when I climb, unless there is an absolute need to climb fast, I like to chill as climbing is the only time I get to relax. Your goals may not be mine & vice versa.

If someone is on a climb or people are waiting to climb, I'll try to find something else. It's not right and it sucks but i just want to climb something. Early bird gets the worm. Did you ask if you could climb around them?

CLimb Safe.

Brian Adzima wrote:Just to throw some full on the fire. I don't know the details of either ascent, but I am guessing the people last weekend, even if there were in over there head and had to aid, still did the route in better "style" than Kor.

Ha, ha, ha; that's really funny! Kor's style was efficient, fast climbing, aiding moves for speed if it would take too long to free them. I doubt Kor would have had parties waiting below while he slowly flailed his way up...

Part of the problem is that rock climbing evolved from a wilderness activity--mountaineering. That's not the problem, it's that many long-time climbers (myself included) still hope to enjoy that sense of solitude on a climb, which just isn't practical nowadays in a popular area like Eldo or the Valley.

I think what that really means is that you have to be prepared to be disappointed if you want to be first or the only party on a route, or even that a party, if ahead of you, is going to be fast and competent. A while back, my partner and I had a miserable time approaching Voodoo Dome to do White Punks on Dope. Lost the trail and had an hour and a half uphill bushtrashing grunt. We get to the base just as another party is dropping their packs. One of that party says that he climbing it with an inexperienced second, just to let us know they'll be taking their time. We didn't bitch, we didn't moan. We just wandered off and found something else to do. Disappointing, yeah, but at least we weren't grumbling behind some party all the way up.

However, despite some suggestions to the contrary, there are "rules." A slower party should let a clearly faster, more competent party pass if it's safe and you won't have to wait too long to do so. Since I think we've established that no one owns the rock, just because you're first does NOT mean you have the right to prevent a clearly better party to climb through. I think common courtesy demands that.

Russel-

If I decide to practice aid climbing on a "trade" free-route is that my perogative and to hell with anyone behind me? Can I set up a portaledge half-way up and not let anyone pass so long as I get there first? I could go on and on.

Being unprepared for the route you are on and taking an unreasonable amount of time is just as disrespectful to those below you as them aggressively pushing you from below is. You are also endangering those people by exposing them to potential weather or darkness.

If you really intend on taking "I was here first" to that extreme don't be surprised when otherwise respectful climbers start clipping your pro and forcing their way by you.

There is no law that says being first at the base of a climb entitles one to sequester that route. Neither is it a human right. As climbers... no, as people we grant that privilege to those of us who are first as a matter of courtesy. In fact, it makes so much sense that this courtesy has been accepted as a custom around the world, a policy, if you will.

But guess what, it's still just a courtesy. That's how important and powerful courtesy and consideration are. And being the first ones at the base of a route does not absolve that party of the same, and a host of other courtesies to those around them, to their sides, below them, or above them on a nearby route. Being first is NOT all that matters. In fact, being first pales in comparison to being courteous when it comes to the righteousness of someone's actions, on or off the rock.

Russell, you set up the portaledge, perhaps at the YS pizza pan belay, and Mike and I will bring the beer, and we can spend all weekend heckling passing climbers and peeing on the route below us. First person to get that picture posted to MP is hereby officially authorized, no obligated, to shut this thread down.

Russell Holcomb wrote: They would be stylistically correct if they wanted to aid the climb and spend the entire day on it for practice even though they might be expert free climbers. It might irk other climbers, but that's not the point. They were there first, that's the point. There is no other point.

I don't know what you mean by "stylistically correct," and I totally disagree that the only point is that they got there first. If someone wanted to spend an entire sunny, weekend day aiding Yellow Spur then they would be inconsiderate jerks in the first degreee - that's the point.

Russel Holcomb wrote: Other climbers that got there late and had to wait for them asked the question if those climber above having the epic were obligated in some way to bail, or let the climbers below pass them. That's the question. Correct?

I thought the original question was more along the lines of whether the slow party should have made the choice to be there in the first place. I'm not saying they definitely shouldn't have been there, just that we should all think of others when making decisions about using a limited resource.

Here is another trick for missing all the sketchy leaders.

A friend and I climbed around Wind Ridge in Eldo on Saturday the 12th. We climbed Calipso, Wind Ridge, Tagger, some 5.4 to the left and had a great day. We did not wait at a single climb and didn't have anyone above or below us, and it was a Saturday. Granted it was cold and windy but not that cold. I think everyone was waiting for the warm Sunday weather and we got ahead of the crowds. It was great fun even if Tagger was too hare for my partner.

Climb in the cold and miss the crowds.

later
Aaron

Dave Pilot wrote:Russell, you set up the portaledge, perhaps at the YS pizza pan belay, and Mike and I will bring the beer, and we can spend all weekend heckling passing climbers and peeing on the route below us.

I may want to show-up for a slice if you promise not to pee on anyone...

Merk wrote:...just that we should all think of others when making decisions about using a limited resource.

This reminds me of water rationing. Climbers could negotiate odd & even days...

even-days = passing ok, odd-days = no passing (or pissing)

Early bird gets the worm, or the epic. I've never done Yellow Spur with anyone above me (always went early), and we've picked other climbs to do when there was traffic on it (because we knew we might get stuck behind a slower party).
I do however advocate aiding/french freeing or otherwise moving up the rock as a way to keep moving if one is trying to have a hang-dog sport climbing frenzy on a multi pitch climb. Especially if two groups are about to try to climb up my arse.
Do you really want to be on a route that is 5 pitches (or less) with 3 other teams? Don't get a cam dropped on your head... "ROCK!!!"

I thought you all might enjoy this:

This is what YS looked like from the West Ridge on that Sunday that Dave was there. If this is your idea of a good time, more power to you. Personally, I wouldn't get on a trade route like this on a beautiful weekend day. IMO, I think the party that gets there first has rights to the route, no matter how fast they are moving. If they choose to let you pass, good on them; but if they don't, you'll probably be asking yourself why you didn't just head somewhere else...

Ron Olsen wrote: Kor's style was efficient, fast climbing, aiding moves for speed if it would take too long to free them.

You mean I climb just like Layton?
SWEET!!!!!

Couldn't resist posting this one, wisdom from Cliff Claven.

'Well you see, Norm, it's like this . . . A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, the slowest and weakest ones at the back are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.
In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine.
And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers.'