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Braxton Norwood
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Apr 15, 2008
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Billings Montana
· Joined Mar 2003
· Points: 1,370
I recently received an email from a person requesting that I remove a post where I offer to email a topo of a particular area to interested individuals (I did not upload an image of it). It's not a scanned page out of a guidebook, or even a hand-drawn copy of a page. Matter of fact, there is no guidebook with information on this area. My little topo isn't even a particular artsy picture, but just a simple drawing with approximate route locations and ratings (I'm not much of a drawer, but I'm a kick-ass fingerpainter). There are no access issues for this area, which has been around for 5+ years. Long story short, this person politely asked that I take down my post and refrain from posting similar things about this and nearby areas because he/she is going to write a guidebook and fears these topos will severely impact his/her future sales. I have my own opinions regarding this issue, but I'm curious to hear what everyone else has to say, particularly you guidebook authors.
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slim
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Apr 15, 2008
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Dec 2004
· Points: 1,103
it's a semi-free country. do what you like braxton!
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Ryan Kelly
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Apr 15, 2008
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work.
· Joined Oct 2006
· Points: 2,960
Can you send me the drawing as well? Thanks.
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Tim Stich
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Apr 15, 2008
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Colorado Springs, Colorado
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 1,520
Yes, I too plan to make a comprehensive guide book to All Climbs Everywhere, so please don't even talk about climbing areas or draw notes on notebook paper with ratings and such as this could affect sales. Thanks. My book should be out in 2030.
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Wiled Horse
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Apr 15, 2008
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Dec 2002
· Points: 3,669
post the routes and upload your topos!
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Marc H
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Apr 15, 2008
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Longmont, CO
· Joined May 2007
· Points: 265
I think the one of the major draws of this particular website is the ability to network with other climbers. If you're alright with posting your work for free, I say post away; I would! --Marc
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Jordan Ramey
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Apr 15, 2008
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Calgary, Alberta
· Joined Jun 2006
· Points: 4,251
I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about and the only thing I have to add is: If it's their route (i.e. first ascentionist) I'd respect what they had to say and leave it unposted. If the guidebook is coming out (hopefully sooner rather than later) and they plan to release all the information in a correct and historically accurate form, it will allevieate a lot of unintended stress (hopefully) to just hold off for a season. That's me though and you can obviously do whatever you want. Just be aware that what you post may not be the whole story and lead to petty feuds and unneccessary bolt chopping due to unintended ignorance. my $0.02
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YDPL8S
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Apr 15, 2008
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Santa Monica, Ca.
· Joined Aug 2003
· Points: 540
As far as I've seen, there are more people on MP recommending guidebooks and helping sales than detracting from them (as long as they're good ones)
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kirra
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Apr 15, 2008
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Feb 2006
· Points: 530
Is this area BLM, FS or ? -- Can I get a copy too...!! geesh - the nerve of some folks... unless it's his own private Idaho (piece of land) I'd say post away hmmm... "What would Bob do..?" (are you back from panama yet)
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Deaun Schovajsa
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Apr 15, 2008
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined May 2006
· Points: 220
Post it! If your post prevents future guidebook sales, the guidebook is probably shite!
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kirra
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Apr 15, 2008
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Feb 2006
· Points: 530
maybe we're being a bit hasty in judgement here... His book could be entitled "Secret Climbing Spots of the Southwest"
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Dan 60D5H411
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Apr 15, 2008
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Colorado Springs, CO
· Joined Mar 2006
· Points: 3,239
I agree with Scott. If this site piques my interest, I would then get the guidebook when I go to the place. (Must be noted that I like to collect a guidebook for every place I have climbed...)
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Mike Ecker
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Apr 15, 2008
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phoenix
· Joined Jan 2008
· Points: 25
most people would agree that mountainproject.com has a great amount of route info but, nothing beats having a guide book out at the crag, nobody wants to bring alot of printed papers on climbs to the rocks. I dont think I will ever stop buying guide books nor will I stop looking at this site to kill time at work. I say post 'em.
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YDPL8S
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Apr 15, 2008
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Santa Monica, Ca.
· Joined Aug 2003
· Points: 540
Mike Ecker wrote:nor will I stop looking at this site to kill time at work. I say post 'em. I resemble that remark
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Stonyman Killough
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Apr 15, 2008
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Alabama
· Joined Jan 2008
· Points: 5,785
Sounds like it would be ok as long as its used with a guide book.
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Jon Ruland
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Apr 15, 2008
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Tucson, AZ
· Joined May 2007
· Points: 651
an issue i foresee is climbers not producing guidebooks anymore because there just aren't enough people buying them. personally i've found that guidebooks have far better and more comprehensive information in them than a bunch of anonymous people posting random routes on the intertubes. no more guidebooks = total suck for climbers everywhere. all this says the guy who gets most of his route information from MP.com.
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Tim Stich
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Apr 15, 2008
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Colorado Springs, Colorado
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 1,520
I foresee guide book authors spending too much time on sites like this instead of getting out there and making more damn guide books. It's happening I tell ya. Insidious.
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Ryan Kelly
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Apr 15, 2008
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work.
· Joined Oct 2006
· Points: 2,960
Jon Ruland wrote:an issue i foresee is climbers not producing guidebooks anymore because there just aren't enough people buying them. personally i've found that guidebooks have far better and more comprehensive information in them than a bunch of anonymous people posting random routes on the intertubes. no more guidebooks = total suck for climbers everywhere. I think a lot of people feel this way. So it goes that there will most likely always be demand for guidebooks. [Insert Supply vs. Demand Chart] Maybe some of the less popular areas will have guidebooks that arent much more than printouts of online resources, but I think the common crags will always have at least one, if not several people vying for gospel status.
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Petsfed 00
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Apr 15, 2008
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Snohomish, WA
· Joined Mar 2002
· Points: 989
Apparently your would be author doesn't understand how this database works (or what a well worn guidebook looks like). This is the greatest collection of guidebook margin notes known to man. Furthermore, if a quality topo for an area is not available, and the author is blocking all topo releases until his book comes out, he's squelching interest in the area and thus killing his own business. But what do I know? I own nearly 30 guidebooks for Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, and South Dakota. I couldn't possibly understand what goes into a quality guidebook.
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John J. Glime
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Apr 15, 2008
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Cottonwood Heights, UT
· Joined Aug 2002
· Points: 1,160
Braxton Norwood wrote:because he/she is going to write a guidebook and fears these topos will severely impact his/her future sales. If a potential guidebook author is worried about future sales, and making money, he/she is going to be disappointed.
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susan peplow
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Apr 15, 2008
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Joshua Tree
· Joined Jan 2006
· Points: 2,756
Braxton, I'm glad you brought this to the forum and appreciate that you didn't mention names. Your post was concise and didn't seem to pass judgement. That is to be commended. I can see how easy it would be to want to spread the wealth of your knowledge. The thing is this. Route developers are funny people often keeping their areas secret for a long time allowing for only select people to join in the fun and often the pain of a new area. All that trail maintenance doesn't just happen on it's own. The time and expense can be huge. How can we re-pay route developer's? Well for starters if they politely ask you to not put out information about a route or area, then respect them. In this case, we hope to obtain a guide book, but let's say that's not the case. Respect the FA and count yourself lucky that you are familiar enough with the area to get around without a guide. Basically, if you did it so could others. I've been to areas before without a guide. It's fun to look up and think, "I can do that" or "nope". It's part of the adventure. If there is a guidebook in the works that's wonderful and I will gladly purchase one. Guidebook authors and route developers are NEVER fully repaid for their time, effort and expense. It's our responsibility to respect them and not rip them off (I'm not saying that is the case today) This subject has come up before on this site when certain people have willy-nilly stated they would provide copyrighted materials to people just because they asked for it. "private Idaho" or not, wait for the guide and then buy one if you want one. If there is no guide, don't let that stop you from checking out an area but do so without pirated information. Again, I appreciate the not mentioning of names and bringing this to the forum. That by itself shows integrity. One last bit of food for thought. The FA's and close friends are typically the only ones that know pertinent route information. Grades we can get a consensus but names, FA's and history is only available by the developer themselves. Also, by putting information out about a route or area that has not been published allows for other guidebook authors to poach such information as their own and then reap the rewards. We've already established there is little money in guidebook sales, it seems only reasonable that the people who do the work actually get the proceeds. ~Susan
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