Sketchy Leaders Always Show Up for Trade Routes Early

YS in 7 pitches is good if you're close to your limit on the climb. If your comfortable, do it in 4 pitches. It's pretty fun to do that way. We usually do P1 and belay at the tree, then combine 2&3, and 4&5 to get to the belay on the arete. From the arete combine the 5.10 variation and cruise up the sweet finish arete to belay at the top. If you do the original route and traverse it may be prudent to set up a belay on the slab before the finish arete to avoid huge rope drag.

meh, i gotta agree with dave and mike on this one. push your limits on single pitch stuff, not ultra-classic multipitch. making people wait for you for that long is not acceptable behavior anywhere else, i don't see why climbing should be any different.

jesus, you guys sound like you want to stone dave just for making this post. climbers are all so friendly in real life but you put them on the interwebs and they turn into a bunch of hissing cobras. christ.

Climbing has become so popular that participants represent all aspects of human society. Its not just "cool people like us" anymore; but dirt bags, hippies, yuppies, elites, snobs, beautiful people, and ass-holes. Lesson #1 in life, you really can't please all the people all the time, don't even try.

Nevertheless, I can be quite opinionated and even selfish about these "discussions" but in this case I have to totally disagree with Ron Olsen, Jon Ruland, and other climbers with such intolerant views. These climbers had every right to be on the Yellow spur, as did anyone else, moreover they actually had a liitel more "right" to be there since they were first. Yeah sure if they had 7 days a week to climb maybe they "should have" tried a weekday, but I think its safe to assume, for the same reason that everyone else was attemopting to climb YS sunday, that they didn't have weekedays available. Like Sam said speed is relative and it seems a bit arrogant and egocentric to say these climbers should have stuck to a one-pitch route. Maybe they've done stacks of one-pitch routes and felt they were ready. And even if this was thieir first multi-pitch . . . .

For the same reasons some of you "hyper-defensive -its my world- types" state that "we must share the resource and be considerate of others" . . . please look in the mirror and dismount from your hypocritical highhorse. These climbers had every right to be there, they started early and responsibly, so they were slower than you and you weren't able to do what you wanted to in the style you wanted to . . . .so what? that's why experienced climbers have open minds and secondary plans. You should try those one of these days.

Get over yourselves and deal with it. Its just stupid or naieve (gift) to plan to climb the YS on a sunny spring sunday and to not "get to" deal with other parties.

Wayne Crill wrote:Nevertheless, I can be quite opinionated and even selfish about these "discussions" but in this case I have to totally disagree with Ron Olsen, Jon Ruland, and other climbers with such intolerant views.

it's ok to disagree but don't be an ass about it. i stopped reading your post halfway through because of all the insults. come on, let's have a real discussion people.

Jon, thanks for your support. My feelings aren't hurt. Honestly I asked for a good stoning on a beautiful Monday when I wished I could be out climbing instead of at work. Some folks seemed to imply that since I asked the question at all, I must have been irate and out of control when queued up. As Mike mentioned we patiently whiled away the afternoon talking about the good things -- politics, religion, and climbing -- oh yeah and the stock market which is mostly in the end about politics and religion. We were polite and friendly to the folks directly above us and offered route beta when asked. Everybody was a good sport about it. We never seriously considered passing anyone since that would have really created a cluster. I'd like to think that those folks who chastised me for raising this issue will remember the altruism this thread has stirred in them and wait their turn patiently, perhaps when the conditions aren't so pleasant as yesterday. I'd also like to think that newbies reading this thread will choose to work their way slowly and deliberately through the trad grades (like many of the rest of us pompous but alive jerks). For now I'd like to tie this thread off. In the end I think we all just want to have a ball and get along, to scare ourselves silly sometimes and live to do it again another day.

Oh and the differences beteween Mr. Crill and myself are 1) I started my post admitting that I was a jerk for posting this whereas he just sounded like one, 2) my spelling is a bit better than his, and 3) his climbing is probably a bit better than mine. Peace. Goodnight.

Shumin I'm guessing that you are underestimating the challenge that something like Astroman has to offer. Also, "hard" or not I'm always excited to climb an historic route with a beautiful line in an amazing place.

I think Dave makes a good point, that if you should think about the potential people behind you as well as the people in front of you. I remember getting stuck with about 3 other parties behind a guy on the Kor Roof because he hadn't taken the time to practice cleaning a roof. His lack of preparation resulted in 4 parties bailing (in addition to his own) as well as about 2 hours of embarrassing flailage in front of everyone.

He was there first, he had the right of way, but it wouldn't have killed the guy to practice a bit, or accept help earlier rather than later. I know I practiced all the skills I thought I'd need before I ever got on a long route like that.

Starting late is often a good option too, assuming that the weather in your area is stable. We would often head for trade routes like West Crack or the Regular Route on Fairview well into the afternoon, knowing that we could zip up it and reach earlier parties around when they were on the easy sections where we could simply bypass them without hassle to either party. Everyone wins.

I went out to Zion a couple years back and had a similar experience to the extreme. I was getting my aid rack together at the camp site and some (3)new guys to aiding came over and asked what I was gonna do. I said Spaceshot they said Touchstone. Cool, I've been on TS but not SS so I thought things were good for the next day. When I got to the base my partner and I climbed the first three pitches and found said guys had jumped on the route the night before to get ahead of us.

It took them 8 (EIGHT) hours to lead and haul the first aid pitch. Pitch 4. Then set up two ledges after that.

My partner and I bivied on the rock ledges at the base of pitch 4. I didn't start climbing till 11am the following morning. I led the first pitch in an hour, taking my time because said party was still at the belay when I started. Then, they started taking falls on the crux, pitch 5, breaking holds and hammering away with pitons. It's a clean climb! No hammers aloud.

Anyway, we bailed. They were on the route for 3 nights. I know because I saw them the next two days from the valley. The bus driver asked me what I was hunting, because of the elephant gun I was carrying, I said "Clamberers, it's a slow moving sheep that seems to be over populated this area and other steep terrain. They usually travel in pairs." My partner, not a huge fan of aid climbing, was done so we moved on.

Ran into that same party in a local bar. If they had stayed for more than one drink it would have been "on". My climbing partner burned her eyes through them and they tucked tail and left. I talked to the locals after they left. When they found out they were hammering away on Spaceshot they ran after them with tire irons, 2by4s with nails, and aluminum baseball bat swinging. No one ever saw them again.

I think they are buried out in the desert some where but I have no idea where.

So, the moral of the story is, don't be an ass or ya may turn up missing, or ya may not turn up?!

Also, we have all been there and even though non of us want to admit it, we were that slow moving party once. Did I say we I mean "you".

P.S.. there was no fighting, beatings, or shooting of "Clamberers" even though they are overpopulated

Dave Pilot wrote:Warning: I'm going to sound like a jerk. I'm going to whine about three parties being stuck behind a fourth party that took 2 hours to clear the crux pitch on the Yellow Spur. The leader of that party was in over his head and allegedly had to ultimately aid through the 5.10 section (overheard from the party above us). Now we realized that picking a sunny spring Sunday to do the most popular 5.9+ anywhere might involve some waiting so we were prepared to spend quality time on belay ledges watching the birds circle below us. But is it ethical or responsible for someone who is clearly not ready for such an exposed and committing climb to get there early, be first in line, and subsequently ruin the experience for the others below? Remember, I know I sound like a jerk, but I'd like to hear opinions from people on both sides.

Yes, unfortunately you sound like a jerk. What's more, you sound like a newbie yourself. Have you not not been around long enough to know that if a party is above you on a route, they own it? No ifs ands or buts. It's at their discretion if they want to let you pass. You have absolutely no basis for being pissed at them. Every climber has to start somewhere, and every ambitious climber gets his or herself in over their head at some point. Doesn't matter if it's on a weekend on a popular climb. In fact it almost always is. If you're below them or after them then you get to wait and that's the end of it. Here's a tip: Don't want to wait? Get up earlier. Don't want to get up earlier? Shut up about it.

You all are missing a great point with this situation. I think we can move this sport into a whole new realm. I'm thinking Eldo, paintball, & rednecks -- something to really keep RMR busy this year.

Mark Nelson wrote:You all are missing a great point with this situation. I think we can move this sport into a whole new realm. I'm thinking Eldo, paintball, & rednecks -- something to really keep RMR busy this year.

Now this is an interesting idea. Paint guns usually have a max range of roughly 200 feet but with the kinds of "sniper perches" climbers can achieve, this limit should be easily overcome by altitude. Go high enough and it will be hard to tell if you've gotten marked by a paint ball or an incredibly ill bird.

The possibilities here are endless. Now I gotta go buy a bigger pack so I can carry all of this stuff.

don't forget tyrols, too -- you can really get a whole spectrum here; then there's BASE jumps & wing suits. Ah man you could just pound someone on the Spur.

Don't forget the Bastille, holy cow, anyone futzing on the Crack; you could let loose a whole squadron from Tower 2 -- awl right...

futher pondering points to the possible additional perks of a later start...

scooping up the uncleaned gear at the end of the day on a busy route

mark greatword = futzing :)

Here's a good recipe for hilarity:

1) A large number of opinionated individuals separated by the invisible walls of the Internet,

2) A relatively banal situation with no definitive right or wrong answer,

3) Too much spare time at work, school, etc.

Mix and Serve.

As a flaming hypocrite, I encourage people to continue having forceful opinions on complex situations with no right or wrong answer. Without this kind of entertainment I might have to take up smoking to find new ways of wasting time at work!

Michael McKinnon wrote:I think most people are missing the OP original point. He is not saying that the party in front of him did not have the right away. He is not saying that they should not have been on the climb. He is not saying, as some of you suggest, that they should not be climbing. What he is asking is: "Is it alright in your mind to tie up a classic climb while parties are obviously waiting below you?" That is all he is asking. The answer is very personal. For me, if I find myself holding up other parties I get very uncomfortable and usually always let them pass or bail. Probably because I am often the one waiting and I know how much it sucks to wait. So I would never want to make anyone feel the way I do when I wait. Further, I don't need people pushing up my ass and I dont like attention while I am working out a crux. For others, this does not matter. They got their first and they are right. There is no law that says you have to let other's pass. It is a personal decision. You know what - both parties might be right. There is no right answer.

I completely agree with Michael's statement. There is no right or wrong answer. I have always let other parties climb past me if I were not climbing at the same pace as they were. And, it's annoying having others watch me sketch around under difficult crux moves as it often takes time to pull through it. I try to give others the same respect and courtesy.

Dave. You don't sound like a jerk. However, The Yellow Spur is the last place you want to be on a 70 degree Sunday morning, especially with climbers above and below you. It's a matter of time before the Yellow Spur becomes the Bastille Crack. The canyon is much too big to be surrounded by people.

Nope, you guys are wrong. There is a right answer and the answer is that the party above has the right of way. Period. Those below have to lump it. If you want to be on top, get there earlier. Then you can be in control. This is not an advanced climbing ethics question. This is basic stuff.

Ben, I love you, but this is not traffic on the road, this is rock climbing and it's serious business and you're a militant. The guy above on Yellow Spur may be having a defining moment in his life and his climbing career and he made the effort to get there early to have it. He earned it by setting his alarm earlier than those below him, and he should not be crowded or judged or criticized by anyone. This shouldn't even be a question. It doesn't matter what route, it doesn't matter what day. If someone is above you and and you crowd them, heckle them, make them feel bad, or even think disparagingly of them YOU are in the wrong. It's arrogance to even present this thread. And arrogance is the ugliest trait that runs through the climbing community. I know you think you are, but none of you are 'all that'.

Michael,
This is not a matter of perspective. This is a simple matter of the clock. If you want to have control over your experience with other climbers, get there first. End of story. Why should the person above have to alter THEIR experience because someone else is climbing below them? They shouldn't. They got there first. That's it. If they CHOOSE to let another party pass, that's fine. But they should not be EXPECTED to do so. That guy had his experience and he earned it. He got up early to get it and he shouldn't be pressured into altering that experience because everyone else showed up late.

And the truth is there are plenty of absolutes in life outside math. It is absolutely rude to push climbers from below.

I'm not arrogant and I'm telling anyone how to think. I would never do that. But if you are below a party that's moving slow and you think badly of them because of it, or you expect something from them because of it, that IS wrong and it is arrogant. That doesn't mean you can't think it. It just means you're an asshole if you do. They got there first, so for that day at least they are the better climber. How about this for a new saying: "the best climber is the one that gets his ass out of bed first." Using that criteria I suck. But I don't hold resentment against those that are better climbers than me in that regard. I would have been pissed at myself in that scenario for not getting an earlier start. We're having this whole thread about what these slow climbers should have done or not done and that's not the question at all. They did exactly what they should have been expected to do. They ignored the dingleberries hanging out below them. The real noobs in the situation were those ignorant or lazy enough to get caught below a slow party on the Yellow Spur on a nice weekend day. That's a bonehead maneuver. Then of course they bitch about it.

I agree with Russell on this. If you want to be the first in line, get up earlier than everyone else. This doesn't help if you arrive to find a line at the base of the route, so in this case it helps to have a list of a couple of climbs in the area that you want to climb. If you start late with the attitude that the Yellow Spur is the climb you must do then you have to expect waiting around a lot.

If a team is near their limit, they will tend to get up earlier to have more time. So the slower parties tend to be first, and the later parties get pissed. Faster teams need to plan accordingly and get up super early or just do something else. It is true that some parties will be happy to let you pass, but really it is up to them. I've actually never found anyone that flat out refused to let me pass, when asked nicely. But a friend did come across just such a party when doing a one day ascent of the Nose.

I find waiting behind parties stresses me out, as well as some speed demons chomping on the bit behind me. I usually have more fun on a 2 star route without anyone else than I would on a 4 star route that is crowded. But it is easy to get fixated on a particular route, so this is not always easy to do. If you go to Eldo a lot, you can just keep your eye on the Yellow Spur when climbing elsewhere, and every once in a while it will be open. Sometimes even trade routes have low traffic days.

Jed Pointer wrote: There are those who think they should be allowed to pass anyone because they're 5.10 climbers on a 5.8 and there are also the 5.8 climbers on a 5.10 who think they own the route.

It doesn't matter if you're a 5.2 climber on a 5.10. If you got there first you do 'own the route' for the period that you're on it. That's the etiquette. There's no arguing that. The person that was there first is under absolutely no obligation to cater to those that came later. They can if they choose to, but no one can expect them to.

Russell, sorry man, gotta disagree, big time. You should go back to page one and read Dave's post before making accusations. Here's some facts for everyone who's not addressing the issue but rather bitching at Dave, while making all sorts of erroneous assumptions and accusations. Christ, you make Dave (and I) out to be assholes when I'll bet that we were more tolerant than anyone spouting off against us on this website would have been. That's right. wtf?

1) no one was pissed
2) no one was yelling
3) no one was heckled
4) no one was crowded
5) everyone was hangin', conversing and making the best of it

If you didn't read 1-5 above, stop here go back and try again.
If you read it, stop here and ponder at least one second before moving on.

• We showed up at the base at 11 am to try to be way behind.
• There were two people in front of us and two other packs on the ground.
• We waited nearly an hour at the base to let everyone get way ahead (visualize).
• We had no idea what we would run into at the base of P4.
• We sat there for likely an hour and a half as one leader lowered down the pin ladder to get more draws, then aided back up, etc., etc. Blah, blah, blah. Who cares?
• Neither Dave nor I needs to be advised of all the other routes we could have climbed... harder, easier, more obscure... whatever.
• Dave was not talking about *us*, or bitching that *we* were "inconvenienced". We had a great day and enjoyed the climb.
• Dave was more accurately, simply asking a question.

Try responding to *that*, and without being insulting.

I think Ron addressed the issue straight up. At a time when the increasing number of climbers out there makes the attitude (courtesy, responsibility and consideration) he describes even more necessary, it is unfortunate to see that it is becoming less and less common.

Now you can all rip me a new asshole.........