Sketchy Leaders Always Show Up for Trade Routes Early

Warning: I'm going to sound like a jerk. I'm going to whine about three parties being stuck behind a fourth party that took 2 hours to clear the crux pitch on the Yellow Spur. The leader of that party was in over his head and allegedly had to ultimately aid through the 5.10 section (overheard from the party above us). Now we realized that picking a sunny spring Sunday to do the most popular 5.9+ anywhere might involve some waiting so we were prepared to spend quality time on belay ledges watching the birds circle below us. But is it ethical or responsible for someone who is clearly not ready for such an exposed and committing climb to get there early, be first in line, and subsequently ruin the experience for the others below? Remember, I know I sound like a jerk, but I'd like to hear opinions from people on both sides.

Dave, I might feel different were i twidling my thumbs in your shoes, but my reactions are:

i)what's wrong with an begining leader, or someone at whatever level, "getting in over their heads" on a route like that? it sounds like they did make it through on their own, how else is one supposed to get such experience? they had every bit of a right to "epic" and climb slow on the route as you did to zip right up it.

ii) I don't see what ethics have to do wtih it, they didn't deface the rock, sounds like they were perfectly ethical and an argument can easily be made that they were responsible by going early since they knew they might be slow? You might have zipped up but imagine the potential discussion today if they had started midday and been benighted, required a rescue or had an accident in the dark?

iii) their "ruining your experience" is your own point of view of the situation it sounds like they didn't ruin it for you but your attitude ruined it for you?

iv) I know you're just whining that's fine but come on, if you know anything about eldo, bad route choice for what anyone could've predicted to be the busiest day so far in 08 in eldo.

Please! So it would have been better if they had shown up late, and ended up finishing in the dark !? Or needing a rescue?

At least the leader was realistic enough to know how long it might take them. And had the skills to aid through some sections.

Maybe it is "ethical and responsible" for more experienced climbers to stay off trade routes and let gumbies do their thing in peace.

Next time put misleading signs along the Redgarden trail saying "This way to Yello Sper--->" and send them to the Kloof Alcove.

Dave Pilot wrote:But is it ethical or responsible for someone who is clearly not ready for such an exposed and committing climb to get there early, be first in line, and subsequently ruin the experience for the others below?

And who should determine the "readiness" of a party? You?

I haven't climbed at Eldo, but I am sure that there were other less crowded routes you could do.

I think Dave is onto something, not ethics, but just rudeness and self-managing limited resources. If you know you are going to be slow, don't do a classic on a day you know it will be busy. It is simply rude to hog limited resources, don't think only of yourself. Of course, there will be times when you will hog a classic route because it is your only chance to do it, but in general, I think a "do unto others" attitude is a good approach. I don't want others to unreasonably tie up routes that I want to do, so I try not to unreasonably tie up routes that others want to do.

Well, I guess you can't say they lacked tenacity.

Working something like that to finally get through a route, though it may have been aided, without bailing -- I'd have gave them a beer. Nothing irresponsible there, you all just decided to go ahead and climb behind them anyway. You Boulderites don't own Eldo.

Now we realized that picking a sunny spring Sunday to do the most popular 5.9+

Yah!...The only routes I've done in Eldo were T2 and few other assorted pitches but I think you "realized" right. Early bird get the worm.

You might try night climbing. I've never seen crowds after dark...Speaking of sounding like a jerk, I've noticed that the harder routes you do, the less likely there is a crowd. JMO.

Hi Dave, perhaps the title of your thread should be:

"Experienced Leaders Always Show up for Trade Routes Early" (trade -trad..? -YS probably a trade route)

Seems you've been around a bit & should know this, after all that's what qualifies a noob - showing up late. ElDo in the Spring on a Sun is no different than RR where smart folks may be sprinting to the base at the crack-o-dawn. U snooze - U loose, better luck next time..!

Good point...I'm sometimes sketchy but often show up late.

Yes, thanks for your feedback. I was mostly stirring the pot to see how others view this. Yes, if I didn't want to wait, I should have picked another climb. My experience was tainted but not ruined; I can think of few other places to spend an afternoon than high on Redgarden Wall. Of course it's important for anybody to give themselves enough time to complete a climb safely, that goes without saying. But, would any of you consider doing a 7 pitch 5.10a if you were not completely comfortable leading at a harder grade? Would you not first pay your dues on shorter climbs where retreat is an easier option? You all cannot be seriously asserting that it's OK to step foot on a long route, be it a trade route or otherwise, if you're sketchy at the grade. That means it would be OK for me to start first thing in the morning on Aug 1st on the Naked Edge because I can lead 5.11a in the gym or in Boulder Canyon. I wouldn't consider doing the Edge for the first time on a weekend, mostly because I don't want to be pressured from below and I want to take my time and be careful and enjoy the experience.

Interesting to hear these replies. I was there yesterday with Dave, and I've before "there" before, numerous times. Let me just add, no one, as in NO ONE offered to allow us to pass. When I was a gumbie (ouch), even I had enough humility to step aside for faster parties. A smarter person than me once said, "It's not what you do but how you do it". Another one said, "I believe with all my heart that civilization has produced nothing finer than a man or woman who thinks and practices true tolerance." We did so yesterday. PS: we weren't stressing about it and we didn't yell at anybody from the back of the line, only gave prudent beta when asked for it. I think Merk above has it about right.

Not for nothing, but if you really want a better experience at Eldo, go during the week; it's a totally different atmosphere.

This thread is just about 50/50. Eldo on the weekend is just busy; this topic could have been argued as well five+ years ago; nothing has really changed.

Dave-

Rock climbs are open to anyone, anytime. If you want to ensure that you don't get stuck behind a slow party, show up first. I've done Yellow Spur after work in 2 hours... we're not the fastest, but we're not the slowest by some margin. The point is that we're not sketchy leaders and we almost always show up early for any route, especially trade routes.

Being the first on a route and being a fast, competent leader helps ensure your safety. I don't want to be on the top of a climb when the lightning rolls into Eldo, and I don't want people knocking off rocks onto us from above.

So... you're also saying that ethically we should all be leading multi-pitch routes that are well below our limits and we have every scrap of beta on? This way we can stay out of your way wherever you might wish to climb on any sunny day? One of the best parts of climbing is leading close to your limit and pushing yourself to that next level. If you never do that, how can you ever come close to realizing your potential as a climber?

--Mike Hannig
climber73

Dave and Michael,

Get up earlier, blast the route, and then move on down the line to your next route.

Given the level of ego in your posts, and the assumption that your skills and abilities are on the same level this shouldn't be a problem. In fact climbing sunrise to sunset and banging out dozens of routes of an eqivalent grade should barely even phase you.

I don't mean to be a jerk, and I'm sure being stuck behind a slower party sucked, but you made the following choices:

1. To get there at the time you did.
2. To get in line behind them.
3. To stay in line behind them even after you saw how slow they were moving...

Maybe they should have shown up late and had an epic nighttime finish/descent? Is that a better option for them?

I get annoyed at slow parties too, but sometimes you're better off just finding another route. Last Fall I wanted to do the West-face variation of the Pioneer Route on Monkey Face at Smith, but when we got to the base at 7:30am there was a party of 3 on the first pitch and another party of 2 in line behind them. We did the original Pioneer route, had an epic 2 hour rappel (long story...) and by the time we got to the ground the first party was just starting up the final pitch; they somehow managed to take almost 3 hours on the C0 bolt ladder.

Sometimes you need to just let people get themselves into trouble so that they can learn what not to do next time. 3 novices leading a 4 pitch route involving trad, C0 aid, and jugging is obviously not a great idea, but they got an early start and hopefully learned some valuable lessons.

Yes, let's force these less skilled leaders to climb on rainy, or overcast days, or when the weather is 40 degrees and a 25 miles wind out of the north is coming through. That'll teach them to slow you down. Really, they were there first, and looked to be pushing their limits, too. Cut them some slack. They must learn, too. I'm sure when you started climbing, you slowed down some hot, studly leader from speeding up a climb, too.

OK, I feel better now. I'm not advocating change. I'm not advocating having the climbing police at the bottom of every route checking credentials. The system works and I know it and live with it and love it. I'll see you all out there next weekend. PS, what do you all think about raptor closures in the Flatirons? Maybe we should save that topic for another thread.

look, dudes made us late for beer and that's that

To reiterate a point made a while ago in another thread:

In the "old days", we worked our way up the grades, paying our dues, learning our craft on easier climbs before venturing onto harder routes. This attitude is still embodied in Yosemite, where there are tick lists called "The Road to Astroman", etc. The mindset was to work your way up to a destination climb, and not do it until you were adequately prepared and could do the climb in good style and good time.

Personally I would never get out at the crack of dawn on a sunny weekend to do a route like the Naked Edge, have an epic, and ruin the day for everyone behind me. I know I'm not yet ready to lead the Edge (and may never be). If I want to push my limits, I'll do it on a one- or two-pitch route, not a 6-pitch mega-classic.

Today, it seems, many climbers just want to tick the classics, if they are ready for them or not. But I agree with Merk and Mike: it's inconsiderate to hog a limited resource. The slow climbers in question would have been better off on a climb they were prepared for: the Bastille Crack, Rewritten, or Ruper come to mind. At least the slower party should have offered to let faster parties pass; it's only common courtesy, another trait lacking in the "me first" generation.

We have lots of raptor closings in AZ, which do put a big dent in the climbing season at Granite Mountain & the Stronghold. I generally support them , but think that the land managers might be more selective about the size areas being closed off. Just a thought.