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SLC Rescue Team "Alterations"

bsmoot · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 3,183
Charles Dalgleish wrote: Other than that, I think it's great that they are training their staff to a higher standard.
What do you mean by higher standard? Who is doing the training?

I'm glad to hear the point of view from some rescue team members. I appreciate all of your volunteer help. My opinions have been formed from past experiences, maybe things have changed, so I'm going to apologize in advance for what I'm about to say, and hopefully this can be taken as constructive criticism.

Rescue teams for high end climbing areas in the Wasatch need to learn the terrain better...the routes, crags, approaches and descents etc. Here's an example: A while back, A climber was injured up by Bushwack Crack. The rescue team arrived at the parking lot but didn't know where the victim was, even after they were told. My friend Rick, an experienced climber asked if he could help. He was told not to interfere. Knowing where the victim was, Rick asked the rescuers if THEY knew where the injured person was. He was told "we have the situation under control". He said the rescuers were in a state of confusion. They were looking up at the cliffs, all pointing in different directions.

Rick grabbed a climbing buddy and quickly hiked up to the victim, who had injured his leg in a fall. He was the first there to help. They stabilized the fellow. Meanwhile, down below, the command center was getting set up. Rick & friends got the victim down past the "gumby filter". At this point some rescue team members had finally found the trail, but they had been stopped cold at the gumby filter. Together, they all got the victim down to the road.

This same thing has happened 3 or 4 other times...It's a common theme. The old rescue teams didn't know where the hell any climbs were. Do current teams know? What if someone was injured high on the Thumb, or the Mule Hollow Wall or Middle Bell Tower? If the weather was bad, could they find them, could they get to them?

Perhaps instead of, or in addition to... tooling around on the Scruffy Band, a rescue team could be learning the crags better... how to do the approaches, how to get to the top a crag. Can they be accessed in the dark? or in wet weather? I'm sure both parties could learn from each other. Certainly, help from really experienced climbers would be prudent. The challenge is getting the sheriff or those in high command to consult with, or include this type of climber. This hasn't been easy in the past.
builttospill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 0

Out of curiousity, who runs the air evacuations in the tri-canyon area? Is this in any way linked to SLC SAR?

denise 911 · · fort collins, co · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 205

While I'm not SLC local - I am a member of a volunteer mountain search and rescue team (which operates, by state statute under the authority of the county sheriff). (Also a volunteer firefighter, EMT, paid 911 dispatcher, and a climber... so a few different viewpoints to consider this from) From how I am reading the articles linked - the sheriff is not trying to replace nor downplay the experience of the volunteers, he is simply trying to expand on the resources he has available to him.

The quoted concern of the sheriff was low response to urban search calls (quote was referencing missing juvi's in neighborhoods - not pulling people out of collapsed buildings). Our SAR team has close to 100 members on the roster - are we going to get close to that number responding for a search in town, in the mountains or a technical rescue? NO - we all have jobs and lives that we have to maintain so that we may continue to have the funds to afford the gear and training to continue volunteering. (on that side note our team does not have mandatory percentage of response to callouts, yet manage to have good response on majority of our pages)

What I see the sheriff is aiming for is not to train deputies how to perform a technical rescue but to develop better inter-agency operations so that the deputies (who will most likely be first on scene) to be at minimum less of an 'in the way' factor and maybe even useful assistance (maintaining scene, gathering useful beta so rescue responders have better idea what they are going into, etc).
This can be vitally important with the search side vs the rescue (back to urban searches) - preserving possible sign (tracking intel beyond just footprints in the mud), collecting useful scent articles (for search dogs), etc. By giving paid responders (law enforcement, park rangers, fire fighters) a better understanding of what we (rescue volunteers) do in the field and how we operate it allows them to be of more assistance to us - making our job easier. (this goes both ways - volunteers should have an understanding what and why they do things their way as well and work together to streamline the entire process)(read-faster more succesful call-outs, whether search or rescue).

ok... so off my mini-soapbox on that one.

I do want to second what Greg said "... We take risks when climbing, the whole point when rescuing is not to take risks"

A good number of our SAR volunteers you will see out on the crag on their personal time. Does that make climbers better rescuers than non-climbers? Not necessarily. Yeah there are some definite pro's to it - but I have also seen some climbers that came to the SAR team and struggled. And I've seen a lot of rescuers that have no interest in climbing but are more than competent in helping with and even running a rescue operation - it's a completely different game.

Point being I guess - it's sad to see veteran members resigning from a SAR team due to conflict with governing authority... sometimes people have difficulties separating the politics from the field/operations side.
I fully respect their decision to resign for the reason that volunteering has to be something you enjoy. Whatever the reason you initially got involved - if you no longer have the passion for being involved, whether for personal or political reasons - then better you recognize that and walk away with good memories.
And know we fully appreciate the service and commitment you provided.
Not knowing the inner details of these specific "alterations" in SLC I don't see it being detrimental to the community and can hope that if the agencies learn to work together better as a result of them, then the community ultimately should benefit.

tenesmus · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2004 · Points: 3,023

I'd be willing to bet that most of the reason those guys quit is the authoritarian leadership style of Sheriff Winder. Whether he's right or wrong, there is not a lot of room for wiggle with him. Just ask Robbie Russo or many of the others who have had differing opinions. They're all gone.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Brian, I'd have serious safety reservations with the decision the sheriff has made. Rich makes some good points, he's also got a ton of experience in both climbing & rescue. Most of which is because climbers in his area get very involved on a formal basis with a mountain rescue team that constantly trains & educates in various SAR applications. (Hope all is well for you this year, Rich)

I personally don't agree with the transition of deputy to rescue and combining urban with mountain tactics. Mountain rescue is meant to operate independently so that safety protocol in backcountry & technical terrain is considered the top priority. Even though the system works under the sheriff's jurisdiction in the ICS, the operation of mountain rescue is a stand alone part of that and which has its own designation under FEMA.

You probably won't hear much from the SLC responders until this matter gets resolved, or becomes a more serious public safety concern.

Nikki Smith · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 75

Four years ago whole descending the snow gully below the west slabs of Olympus, my wife lost control on the descent and could not self arrest. She cartwheeled down the gully and wedged in between the snow and rock. I have had WFR training and was able to stabilize her the best I could. I thought she had sustained massive internal injuries and I pictured her as a quad at best if she survived but was not sure if she would make it off the mountain alive. I was able to get 911 on my cell and called in for a rescue. I have friends who are WFR, EMT and a lot of other designations I could have called. I also have friends who know the area well and are sponsored ultra runners that could have been there within 1 hour. I did not call them because in this situation they could not have done anything once they got to us. They would not have had the equipment (liter, neck collars etc) to safely get her down the rest of the couloir and down to the car. A group of hikers happened upon us before SAR and one of them was an EMT. There was nothing he could do to help other than keep me and the 3rd member of my group calm.

I do not know the exact amount of time it took for the SLC SAR to get to us. To me at the time it seemed like all day. Looking back later that day I estimated close to 3 hours for the main body of the team while a few were there up to 1/2 hour before that, but this is just my estimate and I could be 100% wrong. The hike takes most people 45min to 1 hour with a light rack and rope to get to where we were.

I knew one of the lead rescuers that happened to be 2nd on the scene. EVERYONE I came in contact with that day was great. The all acted in a professional manner and I did not see any of the issues people are complaining about now or I had heard myself in the past. They allowed me to help and I was able to build deadman anchors in the snow as well as rock anchors to lower the liter down the couloir. Could every rescuer there that day built the same anchors? Probably not, but enough of them could have that I do not feel this was an issue.

In the situation I was in, if I'd have called my friends first I can guarantee some of them would have arrived before SAR, but they would not have been able to do anything to really help and the time on the phone to them would have even further delayed the SAR group with the equipment needed for this rescue. My wife was airlifted out and has since made a great recovery, but I think any delay in her rescue would have cost her life.

Most people posting here know who I am and know that I am not some gumby climber who might not know what I am talking about. For my situation, SLC SAR was the right call and I would make the same one again in that situation.

My wife is still here today as a direct result of the Salt Lake SAR and I can never thank them enough for what they did for us that day.

My 2 cents,

Nathan Smith

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Nathan Smith wrote: My wife is still here today as a direct result of the Salt Lake SAR and I can never thank them enough for what they did for us that day. My 2 cents, Nathan Smith
Amen to that. Gives me a cold chill just to think about. Damn...

So, based on the SAR/Sheriff thing in the news, what's your take on the situation? Good or bad?

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC
Nikki Smith · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 75

Not the best day of my life, that's for sure. As to the current situation all I know is what is in the paper and on this forum. I don't feel like I know enough about what's really going on to say. The fact that 12 longtime (presumably) SAR members are quitting in protest does not look good. I know there is at least one SLC SAR member reading this right now. It would be great to hear your take on the situation.

Thanks,

Nathan

Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

Here's my take on all of the above, I'm a former SLC SAR member.

1) I'm a 5.11 on gear, NIAD guy. I was probably one of the better climbers on the team, but not the best. The team I was on had a bunch of good climbers on it. Everybody's a WFR, it seemed like most people were EMT or EMT-I's.

2) Statistically, the team deals with relatively few technical rock rescues. They do much more semi-tech extractions to trailhead, lost hikers, etc. Consequently, they're better at that. How many serious high-angle rescues have you dealt with? How many high-angle body recoveries? These are good questions to ask before you start ragging on SAR folks.

3) I've been on a couple of SAR teams and met a ton of them (I responded to lower manhattan for 6 days, a lot of teams showed up) SLC SAR was as professional as any.

4) I think the re-organization of the team by the Sheriff will make it more difficult to recruit members to the team, due to the more rigid time commitments imposed. However, this may appeal to the WBR/UFA professional rescuer types. Of course, I've rarely participated in ops where we had "too many" responders. I also don't think standard LEO-type hierarchies work in SAR situations, and it tends to turn off your usual climber from participating.

Tom Moyer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 0

I've been tempted to post here, but have been avoiding it so far.

Anything I write may end up in the papers. This is all still playing out, and until it settles I don't want to be in a position of calling anyone names. There are good friends and good rescuers who have chosen, for now, to remain on the team.

I chose to resign because I think the changes that are being made will weaken the team. The primary issue for many of us is not that deputies will be trained to assist in SAR. Although people with prior experience in climbing, skiing and other backcountry recreation do tend to make better rescuers, the team can safely handle a few new members without that background. The much bigger concern is that decision-making is being removed from experienced rescuers and shifted to law enforcement officers without any rescue or backcountry experience.

I am a climber and a backcountry skier. I've been a volunteer mountain rescuer for 15 years. I responded on Nathan's rescue - late, because I was in the middle of riding the Salt Lake Century at the time. I was probably on the rescue that bsmoot described. I doubt there was much confusion about the location. The team has done somewhere around ten evacs off the west side of the Gate Buttress in the time I've been involved. The rate has dropped off since the destruction of the gumby filter, with no rescues there since 2005.

Every rescue team wants people with good skills. Climbing is one of those skills. Showing up is another. So are backcountry skiing, avalanche safety, swiftwater and medical. Everybody wants a team full of experts in all of those areas. People who combine all of those rescue skills are hard to find, and we've been lucky to have many of them on the team. The team has just taken a turn towards a law enforcement culture and away from a climbing culture. If it was hard to get climbers to volunteer before, it's going to be much harder now.

The team turned 50 years old during 2007. I have been proud to be a member of it. Many changes have been made over the years. However, this is the first time anyone has ever made changes that resulted in mass resignations.

- Tom

bsmoot · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 3,183

Thanks guys, for posting up

Tom Moyer wrote: I was probably on the rescue that bsmoot described. I doubt there was much confusion about the location.
This rescue occurred before you joined the team.

Tom Moyer wrote:The much bigger concern is that decision-making is being removed from experienced rescuers and shifted to law enforcement officers without any rescue or backcountry experience.
Certainly the crux of the matter. Sounds to me like progress was being made...now perhaps, it's back to square one. I remember in Zion, A highly skilled rescue team had to wait 5 hours with an injured person to get permission to proceed with rope work. The permission was finally granted from a non-climber at the top of the chain of command. Lucky the injury didn't involve bleeding to death.

So does rescue team training now involve becoming more familiar with the terrain?
Tom Moyer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 0
bsmoot wrote:So does rescue team training now involve becoming more familiar with the terrain?
It's mostly just a function of who is (or was) on the team and what they do for recreation. I'm not really recognizable as a SAR member when I'm out climbing. Maybe the helmet would be noticed. That's about the only way you'd know.

The times you do notice us are when we have a large training geared towards novice climbers. We try hard to do those in locations that won't bother people, but we don't always succeed.
Tom Moyer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 0
Ben Folsom wrote: lowering someone off a 2 inch diameter dead tree is not just the result of somebody having a bad day, it is the result of poor judgement.
Frankly, I'm skeptical. If anyone did use such a poor anchor then they deserve the criticism, but I've never seen it done and it would be way outside standard practices.

As far as rockfall goes, it does happen sometimes. The reality of having a litter team and a loaded rope moving down a scree slope means that sometimes rockfall is triggered no matter how careful and competent you are. Usually it's triggered from the litter team and poses no danger. I've never seen anything as big as a basketball triggered in 15 years, so I suspect there might be some exaggerating going on here.

- Tom
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Ben I also can see your frustration here; but I'm skeptical too. Being willing to help isn't enough -- you have to be committed to this humanitarian cause before anyone can fully appreciate constructive criticism.

This recent situation is not about ego, it's about safety by having experience in leadership available to help others in need of aid in difficult/technical backcountry terrain & under any climatic condition.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

This all being the case then, why bring up one anchor situation now which happened 15 years ago that may have already been dealt with; or could have been dealt with if you brought it to the table back then?

Really, what does bringing up that instance now have to do with the policy decision of taking away experienced leadership from climber rescue to the point that it could detrimentally affect safety for both the rescuers & injured climbers?

The only place I see enforcement & rescue almost combined is in the NPS; and even then, you should still have the head ranger committed to using experience & training for difficult mountain terrain, not beating the pavement looking for lost Johnnie in a convenience store; assisting in the search, fine. But, this overreaching SLC situation is totally ludicrous (in my opinion).

James Garrett · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jun 2005 · Points: 5,461

I just wanted to respond and express my support to and back up Ben Folsom in this little squabble about rescue. I don't know Mark Nelson, but I sense that the situation was or is the way Ben says it is. He is a very competent rope rigger and handler, and it is guys like him, if also concurrently trained in EMT or Paramedic skills who would be invaluable to the Wasatch SAR. Paramedic certification and experience might make someone a great paramedic, but not necessarily make them a great mountain rescuer.

I've seen some weird stuff go down in the Wasatch Rescue arena as well. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves, however, that preventing further injury is or should be, foremost in the rescuers mind. Often "delaying" an evacuation, however, is the very process of "packaging the patient" or preparing the accident victim for movement away from the scene. Then getting them down the mountain while secured to a backboard is much more involved than other methods. These set procedures and protocols can lead to frustratingly long delays and actually impede the speediness of eventually relocating the patient to an ambulance or ED, where they will receive more definitive care. Unfortunately, despite it being the seeming fastest way to handle the situation, just throwing the patient over our shoulders and getting the job done isn't always in the best interest of the patient.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northern Utah & Idaho
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