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Desperately Seeking 8a

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

Funny Post Rob....Truth is that my true goal is not to sport climb 8a, rather to gain the fitness to send some of my bigger trad climbing objectives. I have seen an interesting trend in that the guys that are free climbing these routes in good style ( read not spending months rehearsing all the crux pitches on their traxions) generally sportclimb at a high level. As I have spent the last 5 years focusing on gaining the endurance and technique to climb these routes, I feel I now need to refocus on the power and power endurance to make my goals a reality. (edit: it seems that sport climbing and bouldering are the two best tools to achieve this).

So if I am going to spend the time training to become a better sport climber it makes sense to push my redpoint grade to the next level. If I want to do this it seems I should start training specifically so that I do not injure myself. My goal in originally posting this was mostly to get some inspiration from some of the sport climbing pros on this site. It seems that I got more than I bargained for.

Anyways thanks for the comment and don't worry, I am not ready to give up my rack for the skull cave yet.

abc · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 210

Kevin, Peter, Mike, Bob, and Ken,

Thanks for the kind words about the post. It really means something coming from guys like you with a great track record of achievement.

Mike, I have been taking Tissue Rejuvenator from Hammer Nutrition for the last four years, and I think its effectiveness is more than a placebo. After about three months of use, I was able to stop taking Vitamin I altogether. It costs about 20 dollars a month, and they claim it to be more effective than the usual drug-store variety glucosamine/condrotin. And I would have to agree because the drug store brands never did anything for me.

Peter Spindloe · · BC · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 3,390
BrettPierce wrote:...coming from guys like you with a great track record of achievement.
Ha, I got the sweet end of that deal! My record of achievement stops about four letter grades below any of the others on that list. Hopefully I was having just about as much fun though (and that I might narrow the gap to three letter grades this summer).
Ken Cangi · · Eldorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 620
BigRob wrote: You see- overhanging sport routes are easy. Any Tom, Dick, or Sally "Urban Climber" can redpoint something in the 8a range. Routes of that grade in Rifle are trade routes because they require only fitness, which is easily acquired by doing laps in a gym and does not require the skill, mental fortitude, or endurance that traditional style climbs require.
With a few exceptions, there is some truth to this, which is all the more reason to take a serious look at routes like The Web and Rainbow Wall. These are definitely not give-away fitness routes.
Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

I have been on the Web and looked at Rainbow wall, but really those seem more to me like bouldering on a rope. I will say that the Rainbow Wall is a beautiful line....just more like a V6 after 20 feet if 11+...Routes in Eldo that are more inspirational to me would be:

Incarnation
Paris Girl
Stigmata
Wingless Victory
Color of Pomagranites - What is up with this one...it has to be one of the best lines in the canyon, why doesn't anyone climb it?

Although I love Eldorado it seems like going there to sport climb is like going to a steak house for sushi...they have the fish but it's not the best meal on the menu.

Rob Linnenberger · · Louisville, CO · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 5

"Truth is that my true goal is not to sport climb 8a, rather to gain the fitness to send some of my bigger trad climbing objectives." Good man Kevin. As an extention of my previous post and of a purely philisophical nature,I have been pondering the following question lately: (which stems from my current "Realization" that overhanging sport routes are actually easier than their more vertical counterparts and are prone to grade inflation) Why does 5.15 exist only on overhanging limestone? Does it truly exist or has the idea of what is hard gotten lost? In the 80's when people started seeking out overhangs, they seemed abnormally difficult until the technique for climbing them was unlocked and now fitness can endure anything that has holds. But does that alone make it hard? Why has Ron Kauk's Magic Line in Yosemite never been repeated whereas Zulu in Rifle has been ascended by hundreds of people? Maybe the number of repeats on a route is more telling in terms of the true difficulty of a particular route.

Ken Cangi · · Eldorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 620
BigRob wrote:"Truth is that my true goal is not to sport climb 8a, rather to gain the fitness to send some of my bigger trad climbing objectives." Good man Kevin. As an extention of my previous post and of a purely philisophical nature,I have been pondering the following question lately: (which stems from my current "Realization" that overhanging sport routes are actually easier than their more vertical counterparts and are prone to grade inflation) Why does 5.15 exist only on overhanging limestone? Does it truly exist or has the idea of what is hard gotten lost? In the 80's when people started seeking out overhangs, they seemed abnormally difficult until the technique for climbing them was unlocked and now fitness can endure anything that has holds. But does that alone make it hard? Why has Ron Kauk's Magic Line in Yosemite never been repeated whereas Zulu in Rifle has been ascended by hundreds of people? Maybe the number of repeats on a route is more telling in terms of the true difficulty of a particular route.
Routes are as hard as they are. Whether it be fitness, incredible foot technique, or more likely a combination of both that allows you success, the difficulty is what it is. You get better at what you spend more time on, and most top climbers spend more time on steep routes. Many people find them to be more fun because of their physical nature.

It only takes watching footage of climbers on Realization to see that the climbing is very technical and on small holds. Mutation (14d), at Raven Tor, climbs a barely over vertical wall. The crux is a low-percentage, technical move on tiny, 1/3 digit handholds. Regarding your thought about whether these routes are really as hard as they are rated, I would say that the people who can actually climb them are the most qualified to judge.

Magic line is a rap-placed-gear trad line that is in the Vernal Falls area of Yosemite. Zulu is a sport route that is right next the road in Rifle, which I think has a lot to do with why Zulu gets more traffic and, consequently, more ascents.

Anyway, I thought this was a thread about how to do your first 5.13 - not trad vs. sport climbing.
Rob Linnenberger · · Louisville, CO · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 5

Ken- This is more about giving credit where credit is due. If your goal is to do your first 13a (which I thought was 7c+) then you want to pick the softest thing around. One that you can wire down and do so that you can get the numerical credit. Kevin was asking for suggestions of how to do it, that is, simply get to 8a- and I am suggesting that the easiest way is to choose an overhanging sport route because if you want to do a 13a then that type of route guarantees numerical success. When I was in Rifle, I witnessed a climber from Conneticut send his project- (the Beast) with his previous best send being 5.11. Number of attempts- 350. He gets the numerical credit, but I don't think that he would have been able to send if the route wasn't covered in 1 pad grips because the learning curve for other types of climbing is much longer. The internship is real because so is the difficulty.

My original suggestion was that Kevin already has already climbed 8a because the rating system that we use to judge climbing is wrong and misleading. If he has climbed 5.12 trad then he has climbed 5.13 sport. I don't believe that our rating system accounts for difficulty of style. That's why Kevin, though no doubt highly skilled at climbing, has not numerically climbed 8a. He simply didn't go sport climbing enough in his 15 year career. In Yosemite, it seems to take 5.14 sport climbers to free 5.13 walls. What this means is that there seems to be a numerical discrepency of 1 full level of difficulty in style of climbing giving Kevin 8a right here and now. Anyway, the only true measure of raw difficulty taking into account all factors is the number of repeats. I think that Johnny Dawes can attest to this or maybe Skip Guerin or hell let's bring in Tommy Caldwell. What do I know. I am simply engaging in observational philosophy for entertainment purposes. Think about it.

Mike Anderson · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Nov 2004 · Points: 3,265

...I'm blushing.

I firmly disagree that sport climbing is "easier" than trad. Ken has it right, it's all about what you spend time on.

I can do 13a trad in just as many attempts (or fewer) than it takes me to do 13a sport, but I spend a pretty equal amount of time on both. Although, I'll admit there are a few trad routes out there that shut me down no matter what (Future Chic at Turkey comes to mind, but I'm close on that). But there are sport routes I can't do as well.

The reason "top climbers" have higher sport ticks than trad is because they spend more time on those projects. Tommy Caldwell spent 100+ days on Flex Luther. If he spent that much time on a single trad pitch, he'd probably be in the same stratospheric realm of difficulty. It sounds like he did book of Hate (13d trad) pretty damn quick. Another factor is that sport routes more easily lend themselves to difficult routes for a number of reasons, so it's easy to push the barriers on those routes. I have no doubt that if a one-pitch 14d trad route existed, Tommy could do it.

Adam Brink · · trying to get to Sardinia · Joined Mar 2001 · Points: 560

Keep it coming BigRob and Mike! I was getting real tired of all that talk of ticking technique (!) and yarding on draws to wire for the send. If you really want to climb hard (and not that I have), the conversation you're having is the one that will make a difference.

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

Bob....I think you may be overstating some abilities there. Lurking Fear comes to mind...some of the best in the world have tried yet only 2 have succeded. Yuji couldn't even touch it, and I am confident that the Hubers would get shut down as well. Not many have trained slab to the level that Tommy and Beth have.

Mike you say that sport is as hard as trad, so I was wondering if you can think of any 5.11+ sport routes as hard as For Turkeys Only, Or any 5.11a sport routes as easy as Whatamutha?

Also why is the true crux for most people of Freerider either the monster OW or the perfect corner even though these are rated 2-4 letter grades easier than the Huber Var? I know I climbed the Huber pitch with a single hang, yet had to pull on gear in the Monster and had several falls on both corner pitches. Was the Huber pitch the crux of the route for you?

Ken Cangi · · Eldorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 620
Kevin Stricker wrote:Bob....I think you may be overstating some abilities there. Lurking Fear comes to mind...some of the best in the world have tried yet only 2 have succeded. Yuji couldn't even touch it, and I am confident that the Hubers would get shut down as well. Not many have trained slab to the level that Tommy and Beth have. Mike you say that sport is as hard as trad, so I was wondering if you can think of any 5.11+ sport routes as hard as For Turkeys Only, Or any 5.11a sport routes as easy as Whatamutha? Also why is the true crux for most people of Freerider either the monster OW or the perfect corner even though these are rated 2-4 letter grades easier than the Huber Var?
Kevin,

All of my 5.13 sends have been on sport routes, although I have climbed enough solid 5.12 (trad and sport) to know that some sporties were harder while other tradies were harder. It just depends on the route.

You opened this thread about how to break into 5.13, and now you are turning it into a trad vs sport (which is better?) thread. I realize that you opened it to seek out imformation, for yourself, about the OP topic, but there are others out there who might still want to stick to the original topic because they are trying to get there. Consequently, I don't see the value in turning this into a trad-is better-than-sport thread.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665

Hmm. I can't talk much about 8a, other than that I can fall off of it. However...

Seems I can't flash 12 trad more than once in a blue moon, but I'm ~50% over the years doing it sport climbing. I always hear the arguement that maybe it is because that is what I am used to. But since sport-climbing is a 5% activity for me and trad 95%, so that is a pretty silly explaination.

Perhaps it just suits me more, physically?

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

Ken, if you want to open a seperate topic on trad vs sport go for it. This just seems to be where this topic is going, and I have to say it is more interesting to me than questioning peoples advice do to their scorecard. Also just curious Ken, when was the last time you sent a 5.13 sport route or a 5.12+ trad climb? Just want to make sure your opinion should be considered valid...for the rest of the readers of course.

Ken Cangi · · Eldorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 620
Kevin Stricker wrote:Also just curious Ken, when was the last time you sent a 5.13 sport route or a 5.12+ trad climb? Just want to make sure your opinion should be considered valid...for the rest of the readers of course.
2002, before I got hurt and stopped climbing. I don't see the relevance of the question because I climbed and trained full-time for almost a decade while at that level, so I have a very good reference point. Maybe that is why I just came off the couch after all that time off and can still climb 5.11, with a separated shoulder, plates on my spine, zero fitness and a backpack worth of extra weight.

And I understand the concept of threads changing course, but it is a training thread, and so I believe that it should stay on course out of fairness to the lurkers who are here to learn something. Just my opinion.
Rob Linnenberger · · Louisville, CO · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 5

Ken,

Stay focused here. I am the one that officially gave the 8a grade to Kevin for climbing 5.12 trad routes and turned this into a trad vrs sport discussion. Shouldn't you be at the gym taking your own advice?

Here is how it works: Trad and Sport redpoints get the same rating if they are worked out and safety equiptment is pre-hung. No Sporto worth his weight in forearm lotion would redpoint while placing the draws. If Trad climbs are redpointed while placing gear they are 1 to 2 letters harder than sport climbs of equal value. If a sport route and trad route of equal value are onsighted then the trad route is worth one full number more than the sport route. Clearly Kevin gets the credit and should ignore all advice given thus far. This calls for celebration. By the way I don't know and have never met Kevin, though I believe that he is a good guy.

Ken Cangi · · Eldorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 620

Kevin,

I have to say that I just lost respect for you. Every one of my suggestions to you came from my personal experience. They were meant to help you attain your goal, and you repayed that by insulting me. I started out thinking that you were a stand-up guy, but that was pretty poor form.

It looks like another one goes down in flames. It's becoming an MP tradition.

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

Bob,
I think that there are several factors leading to the increased popularity in sport climbing and the apparent stagnation of grades in trad climbing. First for trad, there is a limit to the possible difficulty of a line that accepts natural protection. If it takes protection it also is a weakness that can be used to freeclimb.

Also there is a large compression in trad climbing grades due to the lack of precident. Lynn Hill called the Changing Corners pitch .13c because there were not any crack climbs rated harder than that in Yosemite at the time. Given the fact that Tommy can climb 5.15, when you see how hard he struggles with that pitch it seems aparent that it may even me harder than the .14a he graded it. As you know FA grading is subjective, and it takes many ascents to truly dial in the exact difficulty. Do you really think that Magic line is only 5.14b, or was it just rated that because Ron Kauk had never climbed anything harder than that?

Anyways I never said that trad climbing was harder than sport climbing. I do feel though that the current rating system we use does not accurately portray the total difficulty of trad climbing. I also feel that many of the harder graded trad climbs put up in the 70's are sandbagged because the FA party did not have a frame of reference to compair their route to.

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

Ken,
Can you honestly say that all 31 of your posts were just giving me advice? I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but it seems that your only reason to post on this topic is to contradict and argue with everyone who you deem less experienced than yourself and to put yourself forward as an expert on the topic.

If you don't like people questioning you then maybe you should look at your own actions and treat others with more respect. If this post is going up in flames it is because you covered it with sarcasm and spite and lit it on fire.

Ken Cangi · · Eldorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 620
Kevin Stricker wrote:Ken, Can you honestly say that all 31 of your posts were just giving me advice? I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but it seems that your only reason to post on this topic is to contradict and argue with everyone who you deem less experienced than yourself and to put yourself forward as an expert on the topic. If you don't like people questioning you then maybe you should look at your own actions and treat others with more respect. If this post is going up in flames it is because you covered it with sarcasm and spite and lit it on fire.
Kevin,

I didn't say thirty-one posts. I said: "Every one of my suggestions to you". You should actually try reading my posts once in awhile, instead of reading into them. Several people here had no problem understanding what I was trying to say, although that is neither here nor there.

The rest of your post doesn't even deserve a serious reply. You seem to know my intentions better than I do, so there is no point in going any further. I'm sure that convincing yourself that I cause all the flames makes you feel better about yourself, but it's not that easy. Your bad behavior was your own so take responsibility for your own actions. My suggestions to you were given with good will. Can you say the same about your derogatory response?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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