aid climbing without daises.

Hi,
I'm new to aid climbing and this site. I've been training for a big wall trip in Newfoundland with a friend of mine. He's got an interesting system for aid progress that I was interested in hearing if anyone else uses or has heard of.

First off he uses an old pair of Clog auto adjusting aiders (similar to the metolius easy-aiders) the difference is that he doesn't use daises while he climbs. He switches between standing in his aiders and sitting in them to progress. To sit he slides the foot loop right up to his thigh.

I don't know any other systems to compare but progression was pretty smooth when I used them to lead a route in the same fashion. They work especially well on steep walls.

Either way, learning to aid climbs been brilliant fun. I'm pretty amped up about the trip.

NS

"aid climbing without daises."

Good call

Using daises and aiders really slows down the process. It adds 2 to 4 steps to each aid placement. The less steps in the aid process, the faster you'll go. Not using them is slightly more strenuous, but it's well worth it. For many years aid climbers sent walls without daises...I've never used them, except on hard aid I'll use one on a manky piece so I don't lose it. In Newfoundland, you'll need to go fast.

Have a great trip!

On moderate aid I use two aiders and one yates adjustable daisy. For steep sections (last bolt ladder on the nose, etc) or if you're nailing or heading, having the one daisy to ratchet yourself up with makes it much easier and more secure. For more vertical sections it's faster to go without.

My wife uses an adjustable daisy on each aider, it seems to add to the cluster-factor, but she's usually fresher at the end of the day(s).

I think it's a good idea to try a bunch of systems, find one you like, then stick with it for a while and smooth it out.

Tico wrote:On moderate aid I use two aiders and one yates adjustable daisy.

I do pretty much the same thing, but I'm old school and I like 2 pr of aiders. I also use the Yates adjustable daisy. If it gets difficult I put out my other daisy. I always carry a spare aider, one of those pocket ones that Metolius makes and you can clip to the back of your harness.

I've tried lots of different systems with Fifi hooks and adjustable Fifis, etc but more often than not come back the simple way of doing things... I don't do hard aid.

Ron Olvesky and Jeff Lowe's dvd Clean Walls give good input into systems etc and in particular Ron has a very clean and straightforward way of dealing with aiders and his top stepping instruction lesson is very helpful.

What got me about Ron's setup was that he didn't have the aiders clipped into anything other than the piece. If a cam blew it would be a shame to lose it AND your aider.

I'm a full on daisy whore.

What do you do when the piece blows, and you're not attached via a daisy?

Walls in NewfunLAND, eh? Western Brook Pond? Those ones looked pretty impressive to me, but I didn't get a close enough look from the boat to assess rock quality.

I heard there might have been a Japanese expedition there once.

"Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok wrote:What do you do when the piece blows, and you're not attached via a daisy?

I usually clip the rope to a piece (no matter how manky) as soon as it's at my waist. I'm usually "attached" to my aiders with my hands. I've yet to drop one.

This is an interesting set of views, as I'm a NIAD guy, but don't really do much hard aid, and Pete climbs significantly harder routes in legendarily slow and comfortable style. I think the no-daisy style is better suited to easy aid where you're not really bounce-testing and it's unlikely gear is going to blow on you.

I think we both agree that russian aiders are the comfort way to go for involved aid. By the way Pete, try these instead of the weak velcro straps on the Trango russian aiders:

jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUC…

They're burly and stay in place. You can sew them to the stirrup if you like.

-t

Pete, I thought it might be better to fall on the rope instead of on a daisy to absorb a little more energy. Legit? The wall is on the southwest shore I think, Devil's Bay, Blow-me-down cliff. Some guys from Maine developed a few lines there.

NS

Hmmm, nice looking wall. How high? What type of rock? Choss or solid?

Daisy chain falls are a part of the game that isn't fun, but with proper technique you can avoid the worst of them. You want to test your piece from down low, so if it blows, you're not going to shock load [as much] the piece you're still attached to with your daisy.

I think the risk [and expense!] of losing your aiders by dropping them since you're not attached to them far outweighs any benefit you gain by not making a daisy chain fall.

Pete, didn't you get hurt in some ledge/deck fall a few years back when your adj. daisy broke in a daisy fall?

1300 feet, clean solid granite. Pete, you climb with your daisies attached to your aiders all the time? You could probably keep your aiders attached loosely to your aiders and not use them to sit on but to keep them from falling. The most interesting part about the system I found was the slidding the leg loop all the way up your leg to sit on. I've never seen anyone do anything similar to that, pretty cool. I've off to aid a bit tomorrow so I'll try some new systems out. Just got my Metolius easy aiders and daisies in! Psyched!

NS

I once thought it would be great to have adjustable daisies and aiders, but I found that there was too much finagling with buckles all the time.

I stopped using the adjustable aiders for leading, but they are the shiz for following.

I ended up sticking with the two adjustable daisies. Now I use two traditional aiders tied together, along with a fifi, at the top of the aiders. This way I can cinch up tight to my top most piece using a daisy, then unhook the fifi/aider combo and just set the fifi in the piece above me.

A piece of 3 mil. connects the fifi/aiders to my harness. It makes it easier for transitioning to free, because I don't have to reach down and unclip a biner to free my aiders, I just wiggle the 3 mil. and the fifi lifts off of the piece.

Cheers,
Nate

Yes, Tico, and that was entirely "pilot error".

There was kind of a synergistic effect, where the whole was greater than the sum of the parts:

- I was straight off the couch on a hard route

- I was climbing on marginal gear above a foot-wide ledge

- I did not climb the right direction, I tried right instead of going up

- I was at a rivet when I blew it, and I had not yet connected the rope to the rivet with a Screamer, I was only attached with my daisy

My adjustable daisy was a Metolius Adjustable Daisy, which they tell you is not really for "life support". In my experience, they were OK.

What happened was the D-ring style buckle allowed me to continue to use the daisies long after they became worn, because the buckle doesn't slip even when the nylon was worn. So they were worn to the point of severe weakness. In addition, I had put them away wet, and the nylon was stiff and hard to move initially - they were not worked in.

What I used to like about Metolius adjustable daisies is that they have a D-ring style adjustment buckle rather than the classic "toothed buckle" like the Yates and Fish adjustables use. I thought this was great, because the daisies lasted a longer time. The problem with regular buckles is that as the nylon begins to wear, the buckle begins to slip, and you need to replace the whole assembly, or at least the nylon. So in fact, because the buckle didn't slip, I was lulled into a false sense of security that they were OK. Of course, I was a dumbass, for any observer would have looked at the nylon and said, "that's not safe any more."

But sometimes people make mistakes - I paid the price with a bunch of plates and screws in my ankle [it's OK now], which was nowhere near the price Todd Skinner paid for a similar mistake of using old ratty nylon.

I was AT the rivet, reaching sideways, with my adjustable daisy clipped to the rivet, when my hook popped and I swung [not fell] horizontally onto the rivet with little or no slack in my adjustable daisy. It broke, and I hit the ledge. I might have decked except for the quick thinking of my belayer.

Stupid me.

Anyway, I went back and sent it this spring. At Kate's suggestion, we padded the ledge with clothing bags, sleeping bags, and foamies - a Big Wall Bouldering Crash Pad at its finest. I clipped the rope into the rivet with a Screamer first before I sussed the next moves. I had new adjustable daisies.

I now use Yates adjustable daisies, and really like them because the buckle and the nylon are both big and burly. They will last for about 70 pitches of aid before the buckle begins to slip, and you need to replace it because the nylon is getting worn. They don't last quite that many pitches for me, because I am up there using them for "big wall camping" and hauling and so on, not just leading pitches.