Promised Land???

Hi everyone,

I hiked up to the promised land last week when I was in Red Rocks to check it out and man does this place looks awesome. Does anyone still Climb here anymore???

Anyone...

Bump

Killis,

What is this you say about "chipping" in Arrow Canyon? To my knowledge there has been no chipping of any kind in Arrow. Nor is this the reason for the access issue. The access issue is strictly due to the fact that the existing road to the recently installed BLM gate/trailhead crosses private land. I'd like to know where this info on "chipping" is coming from. It'd be a sad state of affairs if a pristine limestone canyon such as Arrow gets labeled as being "chipped".

Killis,

I don’t want to go back and forth on this with you. I know your position on this subject and others. However, you are slightly misinformed. Yeah it’s true that Joe drove his truck on the road that goes through the canyon (as have many others), it’s true he used a generator and non-cordless drill to bolt a couple of routes. I know this because I was there, as was another, separate, group of climbers and route developers. I just want to say though, all of Joe’s other faults aside, he has NEVER “improved”, “chipped”, “chiseled”, “manufactured”, etc. any hold on any of the dozens of routes he’s put up. Again I know this because I’ve either been there when they went up and would never have allowed him to use such tactics or have climbed them personally. If your opinion still differs I’d be glad to take you out and put you on any of the routes that Joe put up when he lived here. Just let me know.

Another thing I would like to point out is the time lapse between Joe’s bolting in Arrow and the BLM gate. We’re talking an entire year. An entire year full of 4-wheelers, jeep rallies, and boy scout troops in their big white church vans, and yes climbers, all driving that road. Joe’s driving back there and running a generator is a drop in proverbial bucket of impact. To say that the BLM put that gate up solely because of Joe or because of any single act is absurd. As it stands now climbing is still allowed in Arrow Canyon, but rumors start going out that people are out there "chipping" and we can kiss another beautiful limestone crag goodbye.

Anyway, let me know when you want to go check out those routes.

Killis Howard wrote:Jon, I've incurred the wrath of the less talented a few times for publicizing specifics here, and I'm happy to do so again if it has any possibility of changing the tactics that are being used to dumb down routes that were pretty dumb to start out with.

First off - I don't know who you were directing it at, but I can't believe Jonathan let it slide. Incurred the wrath of the "less talented" - you got cajones man. If I wanted a route bolted, you wouldn't be the first person I would call.

Second he's right about the access, there were many many contributing factors and I personally watched a lot of it happen. Gee, did the BLM ranger you talked to mention the onslaught of hikers that pissed off the land owner there with their minivans and little cars one weekend? Getting stuck and hiking to his house for help? Turning his land into a parking lot. That caused more problems than anything. How do I know, because we went to the guys house and asked him if it was OK to cross his land after that happened. Was there mention of some idiots burning fires in the wash? You think that was climbers? I also recall going back there one day to find 4 cars parked before the path to the Swamp Cave...climbers were a tiny part of the problems at Arrow. I remember waking up to nearly 30 off-road vehicles lined up at the mouth of the canyon, just outside my tent, readying for a jeep rally/trail ride...I've pushed tourons in minivans out of the wash before you get to the canyon...there were many many contributing factors. To blame it on one thing and then put that info out there is irresponsible.

And as for "dumb" routes...if you are talking routes in Arrow...you got some weird taste then man. The place has is top notch climbing.

Killis
How do you and your posts make climbers look? We understand you don't like chipping, but why not give it a rest and just go rock climbing?
Darren

The Arrow Canyon vehicle barrier was constructed for many reasons, but the biggest reason is because Arrow Canyon is part of the Arrow Canyon Wilderness Area. The Arrow Canyon Wilderness was designated on November 6, 2002 as part of the Clark County Conservation of Public Land Act.

The plain and simple fact is that Arrow Canyon is wilderness, thus the area is to be managed as stated in the 1964 Wilderness Act.

If climbers want to continue to protect and maintain the stance that they are good stewards of the land they should not be chipping, gluing, modifying hand and or foot holds, leaving perma-draws in the cave, and driving past the vehicle barrier. If climbers decide not be good stewards of the land it could affect access all together.

I always advise before anybody puts up a new route anywhere in S NV, give me a call and I can let you know if the area has any resource concerns from the BLM side. Yes, I may tell you something you do not want to hear, but the majority of the time there are no problems. Here is my number at work for anybody to call any time you have questions (702) 515-5138.

[Personal attack deleted by Moderator].

Maybe the most important thing to remember here is not who chipped what, where they spilled oil and its derivitives, or other supposed unscrupulous behaviors, but that in no way does the accusatory nature of SOME posts on this thread - along with their defensive counterparts - contribute to the useful knowledge of the climbing community or the awareness of climbers who are concerned with access.

The original question posed had to do with climbing a rock, nothing else. The tangential qualities inherent in this kind of forum seem reasonable and informative in many cases, however, I fail to see the point of expressing personal opinions regarding the individual character of others. Factual information, on the other hand, can be quite helpful in determining how all of us can improve ourselves as stewards of the environment while retaining the privelage and pleasure of climbing a rock now and again.

Darren's remark is well stated: "...why not give it a rest and just go rock climbing?"

people still climb there but the hike in makes it not a total climb a thon. the approach is beautiful and so is the rock. the climbs are very intersting and from what i did very technical and solid for the grades. also pack it in and pack it out. i have done to much cleaning on my visits to this place. i am tired or cleaning up after people. so if you want to challange yourself and enjoy a day of limestone. well go for it and enjoy the sounds of you and your parnter being there alone. if you plan to get up to the upper level tie in and clip of the traverse. the rope before looks dry rotten and might not hold any more. well take care and enjoy the climbs.

Fact #1 "To whom much is given,much is expected"
My home has always been open to climbers. We feed them,shower them, wash their clothes, let them sleep in beds. We have hosted oodles of people, some famous, most not. As for being a boot licker.... I kinda doubt it....ask around

Fact #2 As for being in the wash in my van; The climbers who are packing these tales to you were parked in the wash right beside me.That wash has been used as a road for years. On the USGS maps it will show it as being a road.
Fact #3 The generator was new...it didn't leak.

Fact #4 As for the gear at the Cathedral, you threw Todds' box out of the cave. When I asked about the box, you said you did it. You were proud to say ,"If Mr Perkins has a problem with me cleaning up the crag he can come talk to me." Kate, The girl who was there can testify to this. I also believe that you have bragged and bitched on this website about cleaning up crags and "removing" other peoples gear. In my book that's stealing.

Fact #5 I don't chip, don't need to. If you don't like my routes then don't climb them. Other people do. In the end they will form their own opinion and probably won't even care who bolted it. All they will care about is if it is a good line that is safely bolted. Which I strive to do above all else. If you see an unsafe bolt on one of my climbs feel free to move/remove/replace as nessecary. I'm not so egomaniacal as to think my bolts are sacrosanct. Also, before you criticize bolters you should consider bolting something yourself. You'll soon realize how much hard work and expense is involved. Then maybe,just maybe you won't be so quick to say hateful things

In the end there is this:
You come to the table with empty hands and an open mouth spewing hate.
You are not satisfied with climbers,their routes,how hard they climb,the reasons why they climb or the way they keep their crags.
You have contributed nothing actual to climbers except your opinion on how they should act.
You have turned this thread/website into a hateful place.

The only true "chip" here is the one that rests squarely on your shoulder.
Have a nice day
.

how do you use concrete (and i assume you're talking about portland cement or a varient mix with portland as its base) to reinforce or build a hold? How is this better than your typical epoxies?

Please, Killis, please enlighten us to the great panopoly of wisdom you've gained from your one year of "route development".

Clown azz