Ground Fall with a Grigri

Recently I was watching two friends climb. The leader fell while clipping the fourth bolt at the crux of a route. His partner was feeding rope, and when he fell, he hit the ground. The slack in the system was small; maybe six feet. He was about 30 feet up. Through great luck, he was able to walk away. What I’m hoping to do here is start a dialog about the way the Grigri was being used.

Have others seen similar failures? What can be done to prevent them?

Here are the facts as I know them: Both climbers were very experienced with the Grigri. It was not fed backward. Both were using it according to the method depicted in this guide: climbing.com/print/techtips…
The rope was a 9.8, thus technically too small for the device. However, many sport climbers are using this combination of gear (Grigri and small rope).

Most climbers I know that use a Grigri use it in this fashion. It’s almost impossible to belay a leader if you use it according to Petzl’s instructions.

It seems to me that if you use the Grigri this way, you can’t get around having a vulnerability in the system. If the leader falls when you’ve got the device clamped in your hand, the leader at the very least takes a big fall and at the most hits the ground. One person said, “but the odds are very small he'd fall just then.” I’d argue that they aren’t. It’s pretty easy to fall while clipping.

What I’ve always done when using a Grigri is hold it so that two or three of my fingers on my "brake" hand are always wrapped around the rope when I feed out. That way I always (in theory) have my brake hand on the rope. It is cumbersome to learn, but after a little practice it works pretty well (even for my wife, who has small hands). I don’t know anyone else other than the two of us who belay this way, and I’m curious if anyone can see a problem with this approach. If not, perhaps it’s worth promulgating. See the attached image for a visual. Does anyone else use this method?

If you look at other discussions, lots of people warn about autolockers, and the common theme seems to be, “they’re better than regular devices if you use them correctly, but they’re very easy to misuse.” It’s clear that risky use can even extend to extremely experienced climbers. However, I would like to believe that they offer an additional safety margin when used properly.

One easy safety tip would be to always use a thicker rope; stick to 10mm and higher.

Thoughts?

The best method I have seen used to belay the leader with a GriGri:
1. Have the device clipped&locked in correctly through the belay loop and the rope loaded correctly in the device. The handle pivot will face toward, and the cam's pivot will face away from the belayer's body
2. Hold the rope with the middle-ring-pinky digits.
3. Place the thumb above the handle pivot and the index under the body of the device and "pinch" the the GriGri to feed rapidly.

It is much more difficult to loose control of the brake-hand side of the rope while feeding slack and could prevent a "fall while clipping". It takes only a couple times for it to feel natural. It is not as fast as simply holding the device open, or using other devices.

Feeding rope extremely fast should usually be unnecessary.

Hey guys we have been through this before. I would do a search of past threads as there was a ton of dialog and it was quite illuminating. I started the thread because the same thing happened with a cinch to a friend of mine.

There was another post about a similar incident a while back. Lots of people talked about the way they use gri gris for lead belaying. I think that post had lots of pictures describing the various methods. I don't like it for lead belaying but have used it with the cup method before.

Either way shouldn't it lock up if the belayer just let go?

Went and found it by searching Cinch accident. The thread is: WARNING! Cinch and Gri Gri misuse causes accidents.

Yes, the problem is not with the device.

I guess the only thing I could offer is to get a lead belay method polished using slip, slap, & slide with a non-"locking" device; then move into lead belaying with a device like the gri-gri; then move into dynamic belaying.

Most won't anyway; it takes time, attentiveness, practice with brake and guide hand positions, and for the most part people just don't care. Because the gri-gri works, it can't possibly be a lack of belay skill, until someone decks.

Sorry about your friend, I guess they are okay. I'm not trying to be a dick. Decking from the fourth bolt up just isn't right unless the leader just pulls a shit-load of slack up through the system.

Empirical observation indicates that the distance that you actually fall is about three times the distance above the last piece, plus five feet, plus a bunch more if your belayer leaves a big slack loop in the system, and even more if you outweigh your belayer.

Maybe the Grigri locked up just fine but the extra slack, the rope stretch and the "soft catch" all adds up. Back in the Pleistocene we didn't leave that giant slack loop hanging down in front of the belayer. We used to try to reel in some slack while the climber was falling; every foot you can pull in shortens the fall by two feet. Some people would run downhill or even jump off a terrain feature to take up the extra slack. Some of us still think that way, instead of hoping that a mechanical brake will do the thinking for us.

Mark Nelson wrote: Decking from the fourth bolt up just isn't right unless the leader just pulls a shit-load of slack up through the system.

Some places thats only like 12 feet up.

I recently rigged up a TR with an old 9, got a unplanned speed descent from the ol' lady with the GriGri. Not good for the head. Skinny ropes are a bad idea. IMO, follow all the rules with those things and you're ok.

Thanks for the responses. My main point was that the "cupping" method used by many folks seems to me to have an inherent vulnerability, and I wanted to see how others were getting around this. The "brake hand always on" method in the picture I linked seems like a good alternative, but may have weaknesses I haven't thought of.

Here's the link for the previous thread on the Cinch. Lots of good discussion, and yes, this does cover the same ground.

WARNING! Cinch and Gri Gri misuse causes accidents.

The only groundfall I ever took was with someone cupping a Grigri. Bigwalls and toproping are the only time I use them (and the few times someone lets me know early they will be dogging a route). Bummer about the groundfall.

William

I've hit the mat, ledges or ground twice all together when I shouldn't have.
I never figured out quite how it happened the first time, but I went 25 feet to a ledge despite gear at my knees- it seems I had been taken off belay.
Second time was by a very experienced climber, on belay with a gri-gri, which didn't 'catch' or something. Luckily the mat in the gym was soft.

IMO Grigris are for hard aid pitches that may take upwards of three hours. Beyond that, they seem like a tool for the lazy belayer.

If my leader is seriously dogging a route, I usually have them clip into a piece while they rest so I don't have to hold them.

Thom, you said that "every foot you can pull in shortens the fall by two feet"... care to elaborate? This doesn't make sense to me.

It seems to me the real source of the problem is that the leader fell while clipping. Not to be a jerk, but (I will now be a jerk), I've been climbing for a pretty long time, and I've done some pretty hard routes, with hard clips, and I've never fallen while clipping. Is it not common knowledge that you should never fall while clipping?

Let's do some simple math: suppose there is 10 feet between bolts, so the first bolt is 10 feet up, the 3rd is 30 feet up, & the 4th is 40 feet up. When I'm belaying, I give the leader about two full wingspans worth of slack; that's over 10 feet. So presumably, in a normal situation, this leader was 10 feet above the last bolt with at least 10 feet of slack. Let's assume 10% of rope stretch, on 50 feet of rope (40 feet up the route plus 10 feet of slack), that's 5 feet. In this scenario, a fall would place him 25 feet below the highest clipped bolt (the 3rd), or, 5 feet above the ground. Obviously this is not a lot of margin. If there was 15 feet of slack instead of 10, he hits the ground, if the belayer gets pulled up, he hits the ground, if the bolts aren't evenly space, or if he clips too high or too low, he hits the ground, etc.

To me, its no surprise that someone who falls while clipping the 4th bolt would deck. One should not fall while clipping, especially on a bolt so low to the ground. I think its unfair to blame the belayer or belay system in this case.

In my vast experience teaching others to lead, it seems that people ignore the importance of proper clipping techniques. I assume it should be blamed on the gym culture, but clipping shouldn't be taken for granted. It takes many climbers a long time to master this. I'm actually aware of a few cases where a near-disaster was needed to compel the beginning leader to practice clipping as those his/her life depended on it.

Sorry if I sound like a jerk, but I've seen alot of folks with a cavalier attitude towards falling-while-clipping.

While you are writing about experienced Grigri users causing an accident, I witnessed an inexperienced user cause an accident because the belayer failed to release the handle during the climber's fall, and the climber hit the deck (they were top-roping). It was the inexperienced Grigri user's instinct to hold on to the rope--thus forgetting that the cam bar was being held with the left hand, failing to let go of the rope with the right, thus causing the accident and the rope just zinged through the device. Fortunately, the climber was fine despite a 30 foot fall (into a pile of pumice!). But it was scary, none-the-less. I'm thankful that your friend was okay.

I tend to not like Grigri's at all except for belaying somebody who is setting up a route. Having been on belay for hours at a time while a route was being established made me yearn for a Grigri for that purpose only. I have seen so many lazy climbers chatting away at the base of routes, their hands off the rope and not paying attention that it is frightening. I've seen this with both experienced and non-experienced climbers. For those that have little experience, I fear that they are cementing horrible habits that will lead to accidents later.

It seems like you are clearly stating that you believe the use of the Grigri is what caused the accident, not slack in the line, the position of the leader on the wall, or the amount of rope the leader had fed out to clip, is that right?

I actually don't like the Grigri. I use the Wild Country SRC. It's not a true auto locker but I have found that it will catch a fall without input from the belayer. The best part is even if it doesn't catch a fall it creates so much drag that the leader would slowly slide to the ground.

In reference to the above comments, I just have a few things to add, as I think that this is an important topic. First, it's hard to blame the leader for decking during a clip while 30 feet off the ground (unless they had an unreasonable amount of slack in their teeth at the time). Claiming that the leader shouldn't fall while clipping is ludicrous. It leads to a larger fall, but blown clips happen quite frequently.
Second, I believe that the Grigri is an extremely useful tool in all disciplines of climbing, except for maybe bouldering. From sport to aid, and even alpine or ice climbing, where the belayer is exposed to more objective hazard that may compromise their grip on the rope.
I've seen a similar incident before at a popular sport crag (except it was at the first clip about 8ft. off the deck). The reason for it was that the belayer was using the "cup" method and simply reacted to the fall by squeezing the device. I think that squeezing whatever your hand is gripping is a common reaction to a fall; unfortunately, if using this method, you're not gripping the rope. I've had good luck using a Grigri much as I would a plate device, even while feeding slack for quick clips. I would recommend this method, as the cam remains capable of closing on the rope and a hand remains on the brake. If this isn't fast enough for you, then the top method listed in the tech tip ("Speedy Grigri") at least promotes an open palm on top of the device instead of a closed grip around it. It's also easier to slide your hand back to the brake side.
Ultimately, I think that the problem usually lies with the attentiveness of the belayer. These devices have commonly been treated as hands-free, which they are not.

Well, I still disagree with the basic assertion that 'blown clips happen quite frequently'

I've been climbing for a long time, in a lot of places, and I've only ever seen one person fall while clipping (meaning, falling with a bunch of slack in his hand, while attempting to actually put the rope in the draw) and he almost decked too. Fortuantely he was at the top of the route.

This next bit will sound elitist, but frankly, good climbers don't fall while clipping. [by 'good', I don't mean those who climb a a certain grade, I mean those who are experienced, safe, and competent in whatever grade they happen to climb] Climbers who are in control of their actions don't fall while clipping. If someone you know falls 'quite frequently' while clipping, then the dude is way out of control, and I recommend you steer clear, or take a Wilderness First Responder course.

Caughtinside is right on--when the clip is sketchy, 1) try to find a better stance, 2) try to grab the draw & find a better stance, and 3) if the above fail, drop the rope and yell at your belayer to take up as much slack as possible, then fall. Of course, your belayer will be hyper-attentive at this point, since before you attempted to clip, you realized you were pumped/sketched/at a poor stance/etc, so you said to your belayer "watch me on this clip".

Mike,
you make some good points. Just a question, have you or anyone else used a gri-gri ice climbing, and if so do you have any doubts that it would hold a fall on a wet slick rope?

I am not a super hard sport climber, but I have fallen a few times when clipping. I guess it would not surprise me that it happens, routes aren't always bolted with super positive holds during the clips, or I'm not strong enough to make the move. Either way, I doubt that anyone pushing their limits on sport routes can honestly say they have never fallen making a clip.

Monomaniac wrote:It seems to me the real source of the problem is that the leader fell while clipping. Not to be a jerk, but (I will now be a jerk), I've been climbing for a pretty long time, and I've done some pretty hard routes, with hard clips, and I've never fallen while clipping. Is it not common knowledge that you should never fall while clipping? Let's do some simple math: suppose there is 10 feet between bolts, so the first bolt is 10 feet up, the 3rd is 30 feet up, & the 4th is 40 feet up. When I'm belaying, I give the leader about two full wingspans worth of slack; that's over 10 feet. So presumably, in a normal situation, this leader was 10 feet above the last bolt with at least 10 feet of slack. Let's assume 10% of rope stretch, on 50 feet of rope (40 feet up the route plus 10 feet of slack), that's 5 feet. In this scenario, a fall would place him 25 feet below the highest clipped bolt (the 3rd), or, 5 feet above the ground. Obviously this is not a lot of margin. If there was 15 feet of slack instead of 10, he hits the ground, if the belayer gets pulled up, he hits the ground, if the bolts aren't evenly space, or if he clips too high or too low, he hits the ground, etc. To me, its no surprise that someone who falls while clipping the 4th bolt would deck. One should not fall while clipping, especially on a bolt so low to the ground. I think its unfair to blame the belayer or belay system in this case. In my vast experience teaching others to lead, it seems that people ignore the importance of proper clipping techniques. I assume it should be blamed on the gym culture, but clipping shouldn't be taken for granted. It takes many climbers a long time to master this. I'm actually aware of a few cases where a near-disaster was needed to compel the beginning leader to practice clipping as those his/her life depended on it. Sorry if I sound like a jerk, but I've seen alot of folks with a cavalier attitude towards falling-while-clipping.

You don't sound like a jerk. You sound incompetent. I think this is the most assinine post that I've ever read on this site.

In your "vast experience" in teaching people to lead, have you always taught them to leave ten to fifteen feet of slack in the system? If so, please enlighten us as to why you would do something that hair-brained. And then to say that it's not the belayer's fault, because the leader should not fall during the clip, I'll abstain, because I don't want to completely flame you.

I have seen knuckleheads doing this at Rifle (leaving massive loops of slack out so that the leader won't slam into the wall). What happens instead is that the leader falls from 60' up and just misses the ground. This is the practice of bumblies, regardless of how long they have been climbing. I have fallen many, many times at Rifle, and have never slammed into the wall, and my belayer only had a few feet of slack out.

Taino was spot on , in the other thread, when he blamed these accidents on user error. And before you go accusing me of not reading your post carefully enough, I read it several times.

tharlow,

I push my limits on sport routes and I can honestly say I have never fallen while clipping.

Perhaps I'm not trying hard enough.

Or, maybe I care more about my safety than convincing on-lookers that I'm trying really hard.

Josh Smith wrote:Recently I was watching two friends climb. The leader fell while clipping the fourth bolt at the crux of a route. His partner was feeding rope, and when he fell, he hit the ground. The slack in the system was small; maybe six feet. He was about 30 feet up. Through great luck, he was able to walk away. What I�m hoping to do here is start a dialog about the way the Grigri was being used. ... Thoughts?

Just to revisit as we are getting 2 lines of thought here one of which, having the team fire out tons of slack, didn't happen. Re-reading this situation, to me, is on the belayer; or the leader was runout from the last bolt. A sport route with consistent fixed pro spacing, I don't see how the leader would be in danger of decking.

The way the gri-gri is being used. Every publication I've seen clearly shows the belayer needs to take the brake hand off the rope.

My opinion is that the only way to overcome the reaction to grab the cam is to be completely proficient with guide & brake hand movement with the non-mechanical devices.