Sport ethics and anchors?

greg,

i think the 1750 is for the aluminum rings that are solid. i'm talking about the ones that are hollow, and are for rapping only.

I climbed at the Palace near Fort Collins yesterday. The have two chains at the top for anchors. I always though that I was suppose to clip two quick draws of the bolts themselves to TR. Then the last climber should climb to the top and rap of the middle chain links. The guy I was with told me though that we can just setup a TR through the chains and then lower off and call it a day. What should we do?

Case hardened chain will last longer than anything but the Fixe Rings. Regardless, it's still a good idea to TR off your own gear then lower through the chains when you're done. If the local consensus is to go ahead and TR through the chains, so be it, then nobody will call you out over it but it's still not the best way to do it.
Mal

boardline22 wrote:I climbed at the Palace near Fort Collins yesterday. The have two chains at the top for anchors. I always though that I was suppose to clip two quick draws of the bolts themselves to TR. Then the last climber should climb to the top and rap of the middle chain links. The guy I was with told me though that we can just setup a TR through the chains and then lower off and call it a day. What should we do?

If you want to TR thru the chain links you will likely end up with a fat, fuzzy rope. As an added bonus, it might get well-twisted too. Then you're at the park dragging your fat, fuzzy twisted rope around. That, my friend,is a very pathetic sight. If Killis is anywhere near, he'll spot you for a noodler and poach your gear.

Jared Workman wrote:Please forgive my ignorance on the subject but why exactly, is it bad to top rope/lower off of anchors? I personally bring two 24 inch runners with four locking carabiners, attach them to the bolts or chains and top rope through the carabiners. The last person to climb then attaches to the anchor via a runner and locking carabiner then removes the runners, and rappells of of the bolts/chains. I do this because I was taught to do this but never understood why doing it all off of the anchors was bad. Please clarify.

Whenever a belayer lowers the climber off, you place approximately twice the climber's weight directly on the anchor. As the rope passes through the anchor, all the sand in the rope grinds into the anchor, slowly wearing it away over time. This leads to premature anchor failure, especially in the desert due to the prevalence of sand.

It's much more polite and ethical to lower through your own gear, as you can easily inspect and replace that at appropriate intervals, whereas fixed gear rarely gets replaced, and is arguably more difficult to do so.

Rappelling through anchors places a certain force on the anchors as well. But the largest force is applied while the rope is not running through the anchor. The only time the rope runs is when you pull the rope down and there is hardly any load at that time.

And finally, just to drive the point home, the effect that lowering has is significant. If you've ever seen links, rings, etc., partially worn through (I see this all the time), this is directly from such bad practices.

All this points to the fact that it's not a bad idea to use a rope tarp to keep your rope out of the dirt and to clean your rope once it's filthy.

After trying different setups at Rumney, I think the best is for each bolt to have a 1/2" quicklink with a single link of 1/2 " hardened "logging" chain on the bottom. If the anchor needs to be longer I use an even numbered link 3/8" chain between two 1/2" quicklinks. Here is a link for the chain: steelchain.net/grade43.html This is much cheaper than the Fixe stuff and more bomber. If the chainlink or bottom quicklink ever wears out, it is easy to replace. The problem with the Fixe stuff, besides being expensive, is that often the whole contraption has to be replaced if one part gets warn. Also, some of the designs use two anchors but only one ring for the rope to run through. I like redundancy. Those aluminum rap rings shouldn't even be on the market IMO.

Yea, people should avoid TRing directly through the anchors. I usually lower off if I am the last person on a route or rap if my rope will run badly on the rock. Lowering will wear the anchor a bit more, but the difference is not generally worth the hassle I think. Maybe in a really sandy environment. Especially as most sport climbers use Grigris to belay and lower, I think it is somewhat safer then rappelling.

Ramzi K wrote: Just digging up the dead. Don’t mind me.

You've done the climbing community a great service.

Not.

Leo Paik wrote: Joshua, you bring up a good question. FWIW, here's my $0.02. Especially in popular areas and/or on popular routes, I think you should do your best not to lower/TR directly through the anchors so as to preserve the resources. It is amazing how worn some anchors can get as we've seen in popular areas like Boulder Canyon, Eldorado Canyon, N. Table Mt. when folks do this. My guess is you'll see this at Red Rocks in the Springs. Even when you're the last to TR a sport route, consider rapping when on popular routes. It's protecting the resources. If you climb enough, you'll see the effects of this. Eventually, metal wears down & has to get replaced with enough weighted rope pulling on fixed anchors. Oh yeah, never ever pull your weighted ropes through hollow aluminum rings or on slings alone or you'll be teaching material for the Accidents in North American Mountaineering.

I strongly disagree with advising anyone to rappel off a one pitch climb that has chains, Fixe ring hangers or Mussy hooks in a good location.  More accidents have happened rappelling than climbing.  Yes if you are an experienced climber, feel free to descent how you chose.  Lowering is quicker & much safer.  A fatal rappelling accident happened on Happy Hour Crag from the anchor on Dementia, in January 2001. The climber, who was wearing a big down jacket, did not see that only side of the rope was clipped into his rap carbiner. He clipped out of his daisy chain, without testing the system & fell 80 feet to the ground pulling the rope down through the anchor. 

In 2008, Ken Trout decided to install dozens of Mussy hooks at the Golden Cliffs to encourage people to lower & NOT rappel.  Ken had watched a girl struggle desperately in the cold, from a hanging stance at the anchor, to unclip her daisy chain to rappel.  After this & other incidents where inexperienced climbers were slow & had difficulties setting up a rappel,, Ken decided the Mussy hooks were the best way to prevent an accident at a busy crag.

Lowering is both safer & faster, even when you have to thread the anchor.  Cleaning draws off an overhanging route is very difficult or nearly impossible on rappel. Fixe rings are solid steel & the wear is very slow ,if they can spin.  Both the rings on a Fixe ring hangers & the bottom link of a chain can be bypassed with a quicklink or biner, when they become badly worn.  I would advise rappelling off coldshuts if they are worn, because there is no way to back them up.

In the presence of good communication/line of sight lowering is usually the safer option.   People generally die lowering because they aren't communicating with their belayer appropriately.  Assume they are being lowered when they're belayer thinks they are rapelling. I personally watched a guy toboggan 150 feet down an ice climb to due to lazy communication.   One of the most common climbing accidents is a mismatch between Belayer verse climber expectation on how the climber will get down.  Rapelling has it's own risks which can also be managed.  I use both depending on the route and area and I have a very intentional conversation with my belayer if I'm going to get lowered.

As this relates to using fixed gear I try to follow the ethic of the area but will do what I need to be safe including going through gear.  That said I participate in crag maintainence and donate anchor gear to climbs to pitch in for the wear I might cause.   I try really hard to avoid lowering in sandy areas.  Here in Alaska our routes get so little traffic the anchors corrode before wearing through so no one really cares.   Hell I don't care if people top rope on the stuff I put out up here honestly.

Convenience anchors really should be the standard for sport climbs though I understand why they're not due to costs. They eliminate a lot of risk.   

 

susan peplow wrote: First off, you have touched on one of my pet peeves. People TR's through anchors causes unnecessary damage and certainly can be reduced if the right precautions are taken. I've seen entire crags in desperate need of anchor replacement. Of which someone has to take the time, effort and expense to replace. Has this ever been you? So, Mike is absolutely correct (imo). Always place draws at the top anchor and run your rope through the biners for any top rope action - the last person up can break the system down and rap or be lowered. Be aware of your surroundings and the anchor itself. Even brand new anchors showing no wear at all should be rapped from. Less dirt and friction will allow for longer life. Anchors in good condition are fine to be lowered from in some situations. theRealLangry is correct to a degree - some anchors such as quicklinks or MussyHooks™ can be replaced with little effort. But again, I ask....are you guys carrying them in your packs along with the tools to replace? Sometimes letting people TR through an anchor IS the best solution if you are climbing with noobs or inexperienced people who have no business breaking down or threading an anchor. Get them up and down safely should be your number one concern. I can't express enough my appreciation to those who put up new routes, create guide books, do trail maintenance, develop areas etc. Let's get as much bang for their buck as possible. ~Susan

Except at the Owens River Gorge right? Youve mentioned to me that it's acceptable go TR through the fixed anchors there when I voiced my concern.  

I'n a perfect world lowering works but Ive been dropped off a ledge into free fall and sustained some pretty gnarly rope burn, could of been much more serious.  I've yet to have any rappeling issues. If you're  the last climber you should be pretty competent enough in the techniques used to do so.  If not, then you have no business being up there.

People will say, "choose a better belayer" and my rebuttal is "double check your systems"

Nick B wrote: In the presence of good communication/line of sight lowering is usually the safer option.   People generally die lowering because they aren't communicating with their belayer appropriately.  Assume they are being lowered when they're belayer thinks they are rapelling. I personally watched a guy toboggan 150 feet down an ice climb to due to lazy communication.   One of the most common climbing accidents is a mismatch between Belayer verse climber expectation on how the climber will get down.  Rapelling has it's own risks which can also be managed.  I use both depending on the route and area and I have a very intentional conversation with my belayer if I'm going to get lowered.

As this relates to using fixed gear I try to follow the ethic of the area but will do what I need to be safe including going through gear.  That said I participate in crag maintainence and donate anchor gear to climbs to pitch in for the wear I might cause.   I try really hard to avoid lowering in sandy areas.  Here in Alaska our routes get so little traffic the anchors corrode before wearing through so no one really cares.   Hell I don't care if people top rope on the stuff I put out up here honestly.

Convenience anchors really should be the standard for sport climbs though I understand why they're not due to costs. They eliminate a lot of risk.  

 

Yes, it is true there is a communication error I have witnessed numerous times, where the climbers get to the anchor & says "off".  If the belayer takes them off, then the climber threads & lowers this could result in a serious accident.  Never say "off or off belay" unless you are intending to rappel.  Always make sure your belayer has the all slack out of the rope (or tension) & is ready to lower you, before clipping out of the anchor.  With my partners it is understood that the climber will lower & not rappel, beforehand.  There are exceptions to this rule such as anchor back over the top, a very worn anchor or preparing to clean off loose rock.  In these cases communication is necessary.

I think it is very bad advice for guidebooks to recommend rappelling instead of lowering.  On page 16 of my guidebook "Golden Rock Climbs", I address this issue & recommend lowering.  Hanging around to pull up the rope, then equal out the rope lengths, setting up your rappel device is much slower than lowering.  When you are freezing from cold, wet weather or strong winds or just tired from an exhausting day of climbing, lowering is the fastest best option. 

Do some of you realize you are quoting and responding to posts that are 12 years old?

Ramzi K wins today's troll award!