what is good and bad ethics to you and give the reason for why

i wanted to see what is the reason some people do what they do in climbing. there will be know judging nor responses please to anyones answers. i just wanted the honest truh of how you feel about ethics in climbing. hopefully this can start a way for people to look passed there egos and ideals and superegos and see exactly what they are saying. so please post. take care and enjoy

Lukas,

I think you first have to define ethics.

I've been thinking about starting a similar thread for the past week, but more along the lines of: Local Ethics... Why?

IMO, terminology such as 'Local Ethics' is repeatedly used to justify actions -- frequently those that have nothing to do with 'ethics'. An example, I think some persons would say: 'It's okay grid bolt or to bolt cracks here, because it's the local ethic'.

For instance, just because I travel to a 3rd world country where the nationals are comfortable throwing trash in the gutter does not mean I should consider throwing my trash in the gutter. I have been educated to know better. I don't think it's my job to fix the country's trash problem; however, there is nothing wrong with adhering to real 'ethics' as understood globally, and sharing that view with others.

So, what are local ethics, anyhow? I think sometimes they're well thought out; other times, it's just the way it's always been done, without any real thought. Ultimately (IMO), local ethics should go through a cycle of 'continuous improvement' instead of sticking with what has always been done (i.e. do the right thing).

I agree with Avery on this point. lukas you need to shrink the scope of this question. In my opinion local ethics is a touchy subject, because in my area on the North Shore of Lake Superior, there is a no chalk ethic and try not to bolt anything. Now I don't agree with the no-chalk ethic, but I do agree with the no bolt ethic. Prime example is Palisade Head, The majority of the routes there are crack climbs that don't need bolts. However, there are a few routes that have a bolt here or there, or a very old pin that is so sketchy to clip it you almost want to scream and cry and beg for mommy. I know from experience, and i am to scared to lead anything there yet. I get scared on some routes even though i'm on a toprope. I know many people will disagree with me on the no-chalk ethic. There is a large amount of people in this area that will disagree with me in that regards. I don't blame them.

the ethics of climbing. meaning the correct response or action one does when faced with a situation. i don't want to make this a narrow area. i want you the poster on the forum to state what you think good or bad ethics are in climbing. if i narrow it down you could give me an answer that you feel i want to hear or someone might expect. instead what do you feel as you the climbers locally, and worldly is the way ethics are. ranging from trad to bouldering to apline to iceclimbing. basically what you feel is the correct approach to climbing, setting up a route, and anything else you feel pertains to this topic. so write it down.

and please state a reason for your answers as this will serve to understands ones answer. please no statements without reason. thank you take care and enjoy

lukas wrote:and please state a reason for your answers as this will serve to understands ones answer. please no statements without reason. thank you take care and enjoy

No statements here... just some ice breakers for the team:

Bolting
Power and Rap Bolting
Chipping and Gluing
Piton Use
Permanent anchors
Unsightly 'webbing' rap stations
Leaving bail gear
Gardening or cleaning on routes
Gardening at the base of routes
Use of Chalk
Wildlife disturbances (nesting birds, etc)
V-threads that go into the water system
Mixed climbing -- crampon damage to the rock
Trails/environmental damage by foot traffic
Tundra damage
Caching gear
Cached food on big mountains
Poop
Environmental issues/oil dependency by road tripping to far-away climbs

And, how about that poor little scraggly tree everyone uses as natural pro.... ? That's unethical, because it won't save your ass, anyhow! (ok, I had to make one statement)

LEAVING FOOTPRINTS, THAT'S REALLY A BAD UNETHICAL THING AND ALL EMISSION'S DRIVING TO THE CRAG'S. EVERYONE SHOULD WALK OR RIDE BIKES OR RIDE HORSES. OPPS I FORGOT TO MENTION IMO HORSES CAUSE MORE DAMAGE TO THE TRAIL'S THAN ANYTHING I'VE EVER SEEN!

Not telling your belayer you stepped on a bolt hanger when he's hi-fiving you on a great send is very, very, very bad. Bad karma up the wazoo.

why do you feel this way? come on give a reason not only statements

OK, first of all I would consider letting Bin Laden escape into Pakistan so that you could win the '04 election BAD ETHICS, and pretty much anything involving our chosen diversion as superfluous.

I personally did the bolt hanger infraction. Then a finger tendon popped. Once you recognize it, Karma is instant.

So i can't comment on all of the cool guy putting up new routes ethics cause i am not that cool, however, good ethics for me comes down to one statement.

Climb like a ghost!

Whether it is rock, ice, mountain, hiking, long moon-lit walks on the beach, whatever, do everything you can to leave no trace of you being there.

Don't leave trash, including s#!t (this could be a whole 'nother thread), yours or your dogs! clean off your tick marks, don't step on plants, all that stuff.

Leave no trace means NO TRACE.

So the second part of the questions, why do i feel this way. I have seen so many craped up crags, white prayer flags floating in the breeze, cigarette butts at the bottom of boulder projects, nothing ruins the awesome outdoor experience like the reminder of all the PWT that have been there before you.

Bob wrote:

Most if not all would be considered "bad style" or just a certain style.

While I would agree that many of the items on the list are bad style, that isn't what the original post is about.

Ethics and style are usually two completely different animals.

Onsight vs. dogging = style
Lycra vs. painters pants = style
Fast vs. slow = style

Climbing through a bird nest = ethics
Leaving your poop on a ledge = ethics
Cached pads = ethics

Of course, there are those that blur the line such as:

Rap/power bolting vs. hand drilled lead bolts
The number of bolts needed for a climb (remember the Dawn Wall?)
Chopping the compressor route on Cerro Torre

The bottom line is that the climbing community has never agreed on what constitutes good or bad style and/or ethics. We all have different styles and ethics no matter what we are doing.

That said, my personal style/ethic is the low impact variety. I am not a fan of chipping, gluing, rap bolting, gardening, caching, mud falcons, or lycra. (although in the 80's I did have some) Good style/ethic to me is good old ground up trad climbing using copious amounts of chalk, to which I am helplessly addicted. Good style/ethic to me is never reporting any of the over 300 first ascents I have made in the Front Range area, preferring to leave the adventure somewhat intact for the next party. Good style/ethic to me is the bolt replacement project I am involved in down in the South Platte. (Send a donation to the ASCA right now!)

We all climb for different reasons. I climb for purely personal reasons, so my style is simple and my ethic strict. Others, mainly those who have sponsors, chase numbers or need to see their name in print have different styles and ethics that evolve to fit the situation or need.

There - now you have something to discuss.....

Thank you to Mike Storeim for making a concise line between style and ethics. And I whole hearted agree on his chalk ethic, it's the first thing I do when I get out of the car, --> chalk up.

I think ethics basic boils down to individual integrity, Mike Lane said:
"Not telling your belayer you stepped on a bolt hanger..."
Essentially that is the bulk of the ethics discussion to me. Climb in whatever style you wish, as long as it is safe for yourself and other climbers around you, I don't care. But ethics is the accuracy of what you tell the guys at the bar. If your ethical it's truthful and no lying by omission. Bragg'n rights, is bragg'n rights and if you have the right, then by all means. They say "it's not bragging when you can back it up" which to a large degree is true. If you do have something mastered and can 'walk the talk' then it's not really bragging it's called 'exuding confidence' ;)

What's unethical is to give the impression that the style you used was a far better than what actually took place on your ascent.
I don't care if you like to hang dog the snot out of a 5.4 hand cracks. It's your day on the crag, do what yah like. Just don't let me have to hear yah in the parking lot going on about how you flashed it with only one nut 1/2 way up. So to me ethics is largely just personal integrity.

I had a partner years ago. He was a great guy but a total, shameless hang dog. No problem for me... naaht. This guy would boast about routes he got up, and talk about them as being a nice casual climb when in reality he aided it. Ok so unethical infraction #1 but next... He was trying to get me to do climbs that I knew were harder than what I could climb cleanly and on sight... by saying "just rest on your gear". Now this had to end. I did allow'm to convince me to 'siege' a route over my head one day. What sucked was not all the hanging, dangling and looking more like a christmas tree ornament, but this guy's line of BS at the base of the crag. He is standing in the parking lot telling people who know damn well that neither one of us could climb this route.... that we had.
Thankfully, compassionately the audience (knowing this guy) basically just ignored it.

Killis Howard said:
"I feel that ethics are what allow you to sleep well at night.."
He goes on to basically link ethics, honor and integrity.
So aren't ethics personal integrity?

As far as 'locale ethics' are concerned, that's a tuff one. Obviously the 'rules' to Dresden climbing are the strictest of ethics and you will get run out of town for not observing them. But all to often it is by no means such a clear and definitive set of rules/guidelines etc.

Re: the division between style and ethics, I think rap bolting and engineering sport climbs is fine. There are a lot of amazing climbs around the world that were put up or should I say 'dropped down' that way. Yet that was not always my attitude. It is my attitude now because the routes exist, they are accepted and see traffic. But years ago you would be heavily reprimanded for that. And it was basically unacceptable. This is part of the evolution of the contemporary climbing styles. The times when I said that rap bolting was completely unacceptable was way before the terms 'trad' and 'sport' even existed. That was when rock climbing was an obvious subset of mountaineering.
Today we have very blurred lines. Sport climbing is almost a whole separate activity from traditional climbing. It has little or nothing to do with an alpine 'ground up' ethic. So now we have an almost free for all attitude that is accepted. Anything goes, the style you climb in is your choice. There are even fancy new terms these days to help you rationalize the sport ethic. For example 'red point' ? doesn't that mean "after all that, I finally got up it" ? or to 'send' a route, doesn't that just mean "I finally got up it, all free and in clean style, no falls, no hangs" ?

Re: bolting, I think anyone that is about to drill a bolt should be able to with deliberance so to themselves, "if 50 of the most avid, longstanding locals were to be asked if this bolt is valid, then I know they would say yes" <----- yah don't need to suppose that, start asking locals what they think.

Re: chipping holds... I just don't get it? I put that somewhere with beating a frail women or elderly person to get a bus fare from them. It just seems arrogant to me, "I don't have the skill to do the climb, nor the patience to develop the skill, so I will just beat the thing into submission and get the first ascent before someone that can actually climb the thing comes out and does so". There are so many classic routes at all climbing areas, the only rationale I can see for chipping holds might be a case of a well travelled classic that had critical holds bust and even then I am not sure I could condone it.

All the other stuff, poop, cached pads, rubbish etc.. those are not really a climbing specific issues, but rather just general conscience living. It takes judgement. Nothing wrong with pee'n or poop'n say. For me the key question is: impact?

The first question that needs to be asked in an 'ethical' question, is who are all the whos in whoville. In other words, do you effect others or just yourself? If the latter is the case, it is likely a matter of style but not ethics.

In the old days (70's) we thought it was totally unethical to use chalk and mark up the route with a "follow the white dots" mentality. We used to use local dirt in our "chalk" bags so that we didn't mark up the route. I hate it when I go to a climb nowadays and there are holds that you have to use chalk on because they are so greasy from the abundance of chalk use! Same sort of thing with old pin scars that people love to finger jam. It seems a little hypocritical to jaw about keeping a trail clean, and using an eco friendly car to get to your crag only to subject it to what I call Climber's Graffiti!

If your runout and going to die if you fall you can...

put in a bolt, use chalk, pray, and ascend safely if you have a connection to this plane of reality.

You can cowboy up, punch, and enter that other "happy" place that Jim Beyer, and Brian McCray live in from time to time if your connection to this plane of reality is less tangible.

Or we can ask Socrates, eat some pita and olive oil, puff on some chron, and live your live the way you choose.

My vote is for Nihilism (nice marmot), joking, more leaning towards Diogynese (or however you spell that Greek dudes name).

Scott M. Mossman wrote:In the old days (70's) we thought it was totally unethical to use chalk and mark up the route with a "follow the white dots" mentality. We used to use local dirt in our "chalk" bags so that we didn't mark up the route. I hate it when I go to a climb nowadays and there are holds that you have to use chalk on because they are so greasy from the abundance of chalk use! Same sort of thing with old pin scars that people love to finger jam. It seems a little hypocritical to jaw about keeping a trail clean, and using and eco friendly car to get to your crag only to subject it to what I call Climber's Graffiti!

You know they have chalk alternatives these days. Though they don't seem all that popular.

Alright my take on ethics:
There's a fine line between safety and danger in climbing. Anyone who wants to call chalk another form of protection is absolutely crazy. Maybe calling it aid climbing is more acceptable. Chalk is not a safety measure. It does not have a kilonewton rating and falling is just a part of climbing. Climbing using chalk does not add to your safety. Safety is something that you plan ahead for. Dipping into your chalk bag because your sweaty hands are scaring you does not make the climb safer. I think chalk use is generally a negative thing, although I do use it. However not in quantities that require carrying a two pound bucket around with me so I can dip my hands up to my elbows in shitloads of the stuff. I keep my chalkbag virtually empty with just enough to towel my hands dry on the cloth when I'm shitting my pants on a scary lead. Other than that I try not to use it unless I'm on some greasy plastic gym holds.

Next on the list is bolting. I really don't approve of most modern bolting methods. I can understand that bolts are necessary to safety in many cases during a climb however I can't justify grid bolting or some of those unnecessary bolt ladders if there is an alternative that could go on clean aid or free. Maestri's bolt ladder on Cerro is one such example. Cerro can now go free by merely veering to the left or right of certain sections where the bolt ladder ascended directly up. Parts of the bolt ladder go free as well. Yosemite is another such example of over bolting seeing as how many routes once thought impossible are now going or have gone free. I can understand the viewpoint of previous climbers thinking that this stuff was not humanly possible because back then climbing was something else in comparison to what it is now. I like the fact that Red Rocks has a history of proud free climbing ascents by our pioneers. The ethic in the 70's and 80's was definitely one that preferred avoiding bolts whenever possible and bolting on lead was the norm. The standard. If you fell on a climb you were lowered to the ground and started over again. Today this sort of style is unheard of. Everyone yells take. Take didn't exist back then. Climbers were made of something else I guess. However today we've all forgotten the history of the place we climb in and switched into the trend of climbing being an extreme sport even though it was much more extreme back then. Nowadays you get climbs that are bolted in a way that allows for more difficult moves because you have the peace of mind to pull them. I enjoy this as much as the next guy. Lemme tell you though, I couldn't pull an overhanging 11 if it wasn't bolted as closely as is the case nowadays. We pull harder but not because we're made of harder stuff. It can easily be established that climbers back then were stronger than we are now by hopping on The Pearl. Long pulled that shit in boots back when it wasn't a chipped up piece of shit and called it V5? Nowadays most have to work it for a week or two with the latest high tech rubber, a hammer, a chisel, a pad, and a ton of chalk. It's sad that we consider todays climbing to be cutting edge when in all reality we're pulling weaker shit that goes easier because it's just safer to pull those good looking acrobatic moves when you're two feet above your pro instead of 10 or 20 feet.

Next on the list: garbage and gear stashing. This is a simple matter to me. DON'T LEAVE YOUR SHIT UP THERE 'CAUSE IT'S TRASH. I can only accept stashing small amounts of gear on a climb that you are working for a week or so. Fixed draws, crash pads, and little campsites in the wilderness are trash. That's a simple subject for me.

Next: Clean aid vs. fixed aid climbing. Both are aid climbing so as far as style goes, it's clumsy, slow, and looks pretty retarded. However I prefer clean aid because it doesn't leave a mark on the rock. Simple for me, if it can go clean send it that way. If it used to go on pitons it can probably go on something else that's more modern and doesn't scar the rock. Pitons are unnecessary in many cases nowadays. I'm no aid climber so I'm not sure how often pitons are truly not needed. For all I know you don't ever need them. RP's, hooks, ball nuts, aliens, tcus, zeros, c3s and other newer forms of pro have probably pretty much eliminated the need for fixed aid except in the case of copperheads. Once again, I'm no expert so this is just how I feel about it from an outsider's perspective.

Next: Chipping. FUCK CHIPPING. It's for pussies.

Next: Gluing. Gluing is pretty weaksauce. I don't recommend it if you want good style points. That's just me though.

Next: Rapping and leaving gear behind. I prefer not to but sometimes it's a necessity. Walk offs should be used if available. Chain anchors are nice especially when properly equipped for rapping. No one can help it you get screwed and are totally forced to bail and leave gear. Which usually gets taken by the next competent party on the route anyway.

Next: Gardening near routes. This is pretty crappy and definitely gets some notice from land managers. Bad thing to do. Everyone gets scared and pulls on a bush occasionally but preferably don't remove plants or wildlife that are in climbing areas. Red Rocks and other areas are definitely not just climbing crags. They are also wilderness, hiking areas, and a place to escape. We shouldn't treat them like they're ours simply because we are the most serious user group. Other people and animals enjoy or depend on these areas for survival. This applies to wildlife disturbances as well. Leave the critters that depend upon your crag for survival alone. You don't NEED to climb in order to survive. They NEED to be there in order to survive.

So that's my take on good ethics. This is a list of what I think people shouldn't do when climbing.

Bob D'Antonio wrote: What about chopping bolts??

Ethics, but neither definately good nor bad. Depends if they needed chopping or not. That's like any other question- chopping the ones that need chopping, good. Chopping the ones that don't, bad.

The problem is, almost nobody agrees on what needs chopping. There is the 'every bolt is sacred' crowd and the 'no bolts are good bolts' crowds at the 2 extremes, and everyone else is somewhere inbetween.

Alvaro,
I see from your account that you are only 19! IMHO you are wise beyond your years....or maybe just born 30 years too late.

I find it rather humourous that the subject of lycra keeps appearing on this type of question. Personally I still find lycra to be the most comfortable climbing apparel--kind of like wearing support hose--although I now stick to simple colors--usually black--rather than the wild designs we used to wear!!

Ed Wright wrote:I find it rather humourous that the subject of lycra keeps appearing on this type of question. Personally I still find lycra to be the most comfortable climbing apparel--kind of like wearing support hose

That's the attitude!! I totally agree. Anyway, who needs ethics when you have to worry about if pink lycra accents your bulge better than zebra stripe.