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Stashed Pad Removal Days

Submitted By: John McNamee on Jul 31, 2007


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Stashed pads have been getting a lot of news in the forums recently and it appears that a couple Adopt A Crag events are in the pipeline to clean up the mess.

Mt Evans, 8/25 and The Park at 9/8.

More details to follow.

Link to Forum Stashed Crash Pads in RMNP


Comments on Stashed Pad Removal Days Add Comment
Comments displayed oldest to newestSkip Ahead to the Most Recent Dated Sep 13, 2007
By Scott Edlin
From: boulder, co
Jul 31, 2007

Special thanks to Amy Carden for organizing and all who have come together to show climber respect for the env.

By skiclimber
Aug 1, 2007

This is a lame waste of resources, I think the clean up will have a bigger impact on access. The park could possibly begin to take a serious look into regulations and rules when they see that many people show up for this cause. They might realize how bad it really is that it has come to this. They will see the pile of trash that is brought down to Bear Lake and shake there heads in disbelief. Don't do it, it raises too much attention in the park, Just start taking the trash out on your own and let's adopt a real crag.

By Buff Johnson
Aug 1, 2007

It's just a volunteer deal, so where's the waste of resources? It's not as if the taxpayer foots the bill for this.

By Seth Murphy
Aug 1, 2007

Well said L G.

"Be the change you want to see in the world."
Mahatma Gandhi

By jayci
From: Flagstaff
Aug 1, 2007

I recently had a lot of gear stolen from my bivy at the Mill's Glacier. The reason I bring this up is that I think some people visiting the park justify their crime under the banner of vigilante justice. I think removing junk pads is great, but where do you draw the line between someones valuable climbing gear and trash. I think if you are bouldering for the day you should have the respect for others and your own gear enough to carry out your pads. But when you are attempting several routes on the Diamond in a week and come to find your kit is picked through is another thing. There have been a lot of other thefts on the Diamond lately, and I wonder in anyone feels they can justify there acts by saying they are cleaning up trash?

By SAL
From: broomdigiddy
Aug 1, 2007

The climbing community showing the initative and effort to fix this problem is a great sign to the park service and should install the mind set that the climbing community is just as committed to preserving the beauty of nature and climbing areas as they are. Ignoring this issue over somthing as petty as personal conflicts of ethics or the dollars that you think may be wasted will only persuade them to take a higher action. In the end, the only ones who will lose are the climbers. The only thing negative about this clean up is the bitter taste it will leave in the mouths of those who will actaully have to hike their damn pad in next session. Oh well!
See you at the clean up!!!

By James Beissel
From: Boulder, CO
Aug 1, 2007

Skiclimber, where did you get the impression that the park service isn't already well aware of this situation. Wake up and smell the moldy foam. The NPS has known about this for a while, and if it weren't for the fact that our government works very slowly, they would have cleaned the pads up already and possibly written new restrictions on bouldering. Let's step up, be proactive and take away from this a lesson - what a small handful of folks once got away with, with little or no harm to the environment and relations with land supervisors, may no longer be feasible for a growing population of climbers. This applies to more than just stashies.

By Jim Amidon
Aug 1, 2007

The Park Service WILL remove any gear they find. I've had conversations with RMNP rangers and they look at it as trash.

Yes, the climbing community should be proactive and remove their stuff before some new regulation shows up.

The good thing is the park service is overworked and understaffed.
I doubt they would poach a stash for specific gear, but if they see some thing in one place more than once, well I bet you could reclaim it at RMNP lost and found.

They do look around Mills Glacier and around the area at and near the base of the Diamond.
I've also had a friend that stashed some gear up above Chasm. Well he didn't put it in a sealed container and left it up there for most of the summer, so his biners were all oxidized.

My 2 cents worth........Hey at least we don't have some of the restrictions like other parks........If climbers/boulderers keep it up though well I wouldn't blame the Park service. There just trying to keep it clean for everyone.

By skiclimber
Aug 1, 2007

In response to multiple responses:

Mark Nelson said,

"It's just a volunteer deal, so where's the waste of resources? It's not as if the taxpayer foots the bill for this."

Resources is not just about money. There is still time and energy, Phone calls are being made and dates organized, etc.

That is great people are gonna volunteer there time and pitch in, but it is such an easy problem to solve, and a mass effort could be used in better places. This one will fix itself because people are scared that they are gonna lose there precious pebble pads and they are getting them out. The word is out

LG said

"I think itís far better to admit thereís a problem and demonstrate that the climbing community is willing to fix it, rather than just play ostrich, pretending that everything is all right and hope it goes away. To me, the former is an example of leadership and the latter of fear. Thanks Amy!

OK LG, you are way off the mark. you are right about one thing though the fear. I am afraid. I am afraid of people like you who need a leader to tell them it's wrong to leave trash in the mountains and let's follow our leader into the trenches to take it out, because you can't figure it out for yourself that it is wrong and we should do something about it.

This is common sense, DON'T LEAVE TRASH IN THE MOUNTAINS, If you need a leader to direct you on a matter that is so simple and easy, pick up trash in the mountains, then how do you get through your daily tasks and simple ways of life, You must have hundreds of leaders to get you through a day. Yeah that's what this world needs more leaders, I love to be led, following rules!!!

JAMES BEISSEL said

"Skiclimber, where did you get the impression that the park service isn't already well aware of this situation. Wake up and smell the moldy foam. The NPS has known about this for a while

James, you are ranting, so I will rant back,

I have been using the park for 14 years and when in the park, I climb on a rope up high about 99% of the time, Of course, I know the rangers are aware, I know quite a bit of the rangers and NPS staff probably more of them than you, I see them all the time. So I am awake, but I don't know what moldy foam smells like, because I don't hang out with pad stashing pebble wrestlers.

Here is where my fear lies, LG listen up as well,

The park staff knows about this, but right now it is the active community park staff, Climbing rangers and park people that actually use and enjoy the park, the employees that you will actually see and talk to in these wonderful places, not the worthless desk employees of the NPS that make up rules and hold conferences in some office somewhere far from the park.

Example, a little over a month ago the trail from Chasm Junction to Chasm Lake was closed, it was front page news in the Estes paper. It was closed because there was a loose rock above the trail. Word got out and things blew way out of proportion, the message got into the wrong hands, phone calls were made, and then bam, trails closed. There are infinite loose rocks and cliffs above the trail everywhere, but someone behind a desk who can enforce rules was informed and rules and regulations were enforced immediately. It is someones job to just make and enforce rules.

This is my fear, I know that certain employees of the park are aware, but my theory is, and this is just a theory, so slander back if it makes you feel big and cool inside to rip into me, the word has not gone far enough into the chain of employees that would over react and implement some serious changes, and I would think that the employees that are aware might see it this way as well and might want to help just solve the problem before it does raise the brows of the wrong folks.

Don't make a bigger fuss than needed, People are taking their pads out, people are informed, we don't need a special day were we all go up there and clean and the people who were not informed are thinking What's this?

Just do your part, everyday is clean up day, We are all up in these hills all the time, just take more out with you than you went in with if you can, this will help you with your mountain karma as well. We don't need a leader or a specific date to do this in such a vast wilderness area as RMNP.

My 2 cents

By skiclimber
Aug 1, 2007

Another note for Mark Nelson,

this was taken from the stashed pads thread, this is from Avery's post about how adopt a crag events are organized.

Doing an Adopt a Crag event
Step One: Assess Crags for Amount of Work
Step Two: Get Permission from Land Managers or Property Owners
Step Three: Develop a Plan
Step ...

Details:
Step Two: Get Permission from Land Managers or Property Owners
As with any work on public or private land, get permission first. If you go in with all the above information, you stand a good chance of having a successful project. By talking to your land manager or property owner first, you are ensuring that the project is approved and the necessary permits, insurance, and liability issues are complete. The more prepared you are, the easier ... blah blah blah.

Yeah I guess your right Mark, I could not figure out if it took any resources or not to do one of these events, seems like they just happen by themselves.

By Malcolm Daly
From: Boulder, CO
Aug 1, 2007

Amy,
Thanks a ton for organizing this. I'll be there for the Chaos one barring weird things happening. I recommend that the cleaner-uppers get first dibs on the pads. Then we take the remaining pads to some central location (The Spot?) so that their owners can claim them. After 30 days, sell or auction them with the proceeds going to the Access Fund.

skiclimber,
I feel your pain. It's always a bit of a crap shoot when you involve the "authorities" but at this point I think it's the right choice. We need to show that that we we can clean up our messes. I hope you are right though: Maybe we'll get up there and find that all of the pads have been retrieved and the bits of foam and trash and shredded shells have been picked up and we can just enjoy our free day in the mountains. But the best I can imagine is that the good pads will be gone but not the trash. Perhaps this day will inspire the boulderers to get together and build real trails to the most popular boulders, harden the sites that need it and fix the damage that can be fixed.

Mal

By Buff Johnson
Aug 2, 2007

I guess I could understand the point about using resources effectively, but we're talking about some boulderers getting together and cleaning up their mess. So the resource being offered is really on them; whether they get together and go to Morrison for the afternoon & recreate or go to the wilderness and do a clean up; there isn't much, if any, additional resource put to use by other agencies. The stuff being cut & pasted are just recommendations.

Seems to me, one of the problems being discussed is more what the AF is doing than what volunteers are doing, as the NPS or USFS would just be running the course with their daily routines. In this case, I don't see much extra the AF is putting into this.

Though, I think there is a good point made in that, what is being done really isn't offering anything back to improve our use of the wilderness. They're clean-ups of something that should have never happened in the first place.

Another good point is the intent of collecting the pads for resale. Offering a portion of the proceeds to a non-profit seems like bs to me, I'd rather the idea of the auction for the entire proceeds to the non-profit.

By TMB
Aug 4, 2007

Great Job Amy,
it's really starting to show that the overwhelming majority of climbers think this is unacceptable. The whole argument seems so ridiculous that i can't believe it is even taking place. Somewhere along the line a small number of people decided that being a strong climber or putting up a few problems or being from boulder somehow gives them the right to do whatever the hell they want. Really though, nobody has the right to trash a climbing area because they are too lazy to carry a 10 lbs crash pad. Plus, there are a ton of roadside areas in Colorado if hiking a pad around isn't your thing.
The part that is really troubling is that most of the people who are creating the problems are sponsored and/or a well known member of the climbing community. I think that i personally need to reevaluate my support of companies like Neptune Mountaineering and Evolv if they are going to continue to support climbers with disappointing ethics.

ps to anyone doubting the impact of old pads, if you would like me to send you a photo of all of the bits of foam i collected in about 2 hours at Evans without really trying, just give me your e-mail address and i would be happy to pass along. Its a very real problem that isn't going to go away until we (or the rangers) do something about it.

Thomas

By L G
From: Boulder, CO
Aug 4, 2007

if you would like me to send you a photo of all of the bits of foam i collected in about 2 hours at Evans without really trying, just give me your e-mail address and i would be happy to pass along

TMB, I was just thinking it might be more meaningful to some people who aren't currently engaged, and perhaps engender their support, if they were able to actually see the problem under discussion. Is there any way to post the pics here?

By Nate A
From: Estes Park, CO
Aug 4, 2007

I agree with skiclimber, an organized event like this has a way of falling into the wrong hands, especially in the beaurocratic, desk confined world of park management. I also know that if I was a pebbler with a stashed pad and heard about this event, which I am sure most already have, I would pull it for this weekend and return it the next. I think it is far better to use the fear tactic, that is the fear of your stashed pad being gone when you return to use it, than it is to raise awareness with the RMNP management.

By Jeffrey Bauer
Aug 5, 2007

just a question, what ever happened to the day when you respected your own gear and fought tooth and nail to retrieve a wedged nut? Seems to me like its a good waste of cash to whoever stashes the pad and should be a benefit for happy homeless climbers...stashed = cash right? just a comment, i think the stashers are very lazy people, unless your stashing hardware for a sick ascent up the diamond, its out of site, and only available to the tradman with the pirate map that stashed it in the first place, it shouldn't be so hard for theses muscle bound kiddos to carry up foam on a great trail for cryin out loud!

By wade david
Aug 5, 2007

Nice job for organizing this!

By AccessFund HQ
Aug 6, 2007

There are absolutely no negatives to the vision and initiative that Amy is showing.

Amy had the foresight to see that a problem we climbers created, leaving our stuff behind, was a potential threat to the access of a place that we love. She then took the next step to do something about it (the step that too many of us don't follow up with).

True, skiclimber, that if we cleaned up our mess on the frontside, none of this would be necessary. However, too many of us don't, so it is.

Good luck Amy, great job, and may your turn out be huge.

By Mike Carnes
Aug 8, 2007

I say we go up with a gas can, put all the pads in a pile, dump gas one them, burn them to the ground, and dance around them naked in a big pagan celebration. That way we remedy the situation and build awareness. Not to mention one hell of a party!!!!

By skiclimber
Aug 12, 2007

Pads have disapeared at an alarming rate, the clean up is taking place and well underway. Let's do something more productive with the adopt a crag day. The word got out and people have stepped up. As predicted, Everyone knows it is a problem and the issue is self policing itself. Let's find a better adopt a crag objective and stop this thread so we can use our energy somewhere else.

How about a diamond clean up. I was up there last week, so much tat and there are fixed ropes and gear all the way up the dunn west bay. How about a descent gully clean up of all the major formations in the park. There is tat all over the petit gully between the sabre and the petit from people that can't find the bolted descent and prefer to rappel in a loose chockstone sketch gully. There is the same on Notchtop from people that can't find those descent bolts as well. Let's all split up and climb major formations in the park and see how much tat and dropped gear can be retrieved. Send a team into fields chimney and you will hit the booty jackpot. Clean up all the bivy sites as well. I find old cans and food trash everytime I am up there.

I know this would be a very risky clean up and is probably inappropriate from a liability stand point, besides it seems the clean up day is mostly going to be attended by pebble wrestlers anyway, but we would come out with more tat and trash than we will pads at this point. Plus we won't all invade as a mass mob of people into one area that will surely make an impact in itself.

Sounds like the day is just going to turn into a bouldering session at this point, but not a low impact one, the biggest and largest bouldering party in the history of emerald.

My 2 cents.

By J. Fox
From: Black Hawk, CO
Aug 13, 2007

"....pebble wrestlers...." That's friggin hilarious! Must say I havne't heard that one before!

By AccessFund HQ
Aug 14, 2007

Thanks go out to all those boulderers out here taking the initiative ahead of time, removing their pads.
I am sure they all wanted to make it to Amy's fantastic event, but checked their schedules only to find they were double booked.
It will sure be nice to carry down less trash/pads the day of the event. Not to mention beer-thirty comes quicker when there is less work to do.

Skiclimber- Great idea, why don't to act on your idea and register an Adopt-a-crag event for the Diamond as well. Two events are better than one.

As for pad burning- It is probably in our collective best intrest to keep our carbon footprint a bit smaller. The NPS has their fire management "hands full" to begin with.

By Davin Bagdonas
Aug 17, 2007

Great work Amy!

A number of poor high school kids are looking for affordable pads here in Laramie. Lots of energy to clean up. They don't rope climb, so this would be their best effort. Any body else work at a school were kids are learning the sport/ethics? I'm sure they would be interested in helping out. Expect a lot of energy searching for rotting foam. No stone will be left unturned.

By skiclimber
Aug 17, 2007

DAVIN BAGDONAS,

"Said leave no stone unturned"

Great ethical leave no trace approach to this fragile high alpine environment. The pads are gone, This event only creates a large high impact with many people in one place at one time. This is not a place to bring high numbers and prove yourself as a climbing community that is hear to protect and preserve. You are doing quite the opposite and as much as the pebble wrestlers go there and trash it, They have never brought a group of this size up there.

So have fun turning stones Davin

By amy c
Aug 17, 2007

We will be adhering to the USFS regulations for the clean up. We have two rangers that will be coming with us for the Evans effort, and no group will be larger than 15 people. In the event we find no pads, we will do trail clean ups and try to close and restore secondary trails.

I really want to thank everyone for all the support we've received. I thoroughly appreciate it.

By pturecek
Aug 29, 2007

THANK YOU! The US Forest Service would like to say a big thanks to Amy for organizing the August 25th, Adopt-a-Crag day at Mt. Evans, and for the 14 others who came out and helped. It was a great day with lots of conversation and ideas shared. While there wasnít much trash to pick up, (thanks everyone!) we did work on some of the social trails between A and B to reduce trail braiding impacts, especially in the wet areas. Itís very refreshing and encouraging for us as land managers to see people getting together and doing something proactive about the area. Working directly with us is the best way to take care of the area we all love, and keep it open for future use. Thanks to all those that didnít show up for the cleanup, but are doing their part for the Wilderness by keeping the area free of trash, practicing Leave No Trace, and not stashing pads. Thanks again, and looking forward to more volunteer projects, we canít do it without you! Happy climbing! Thanks, Patti Turecek, Recreation Planner, Clear Creek Ranger District, and Ralph Bradt, Lead Wilderness Ranger, South Platte Ranger District

By KCP
From: Eldorado Springs, CO
Aug 31, 2007

Nice job, Amy.

By Jim Wacjsentjsz
Sep 4, 2007

I wonder what the problem really is with stashed gear, and if it is really disappearing and pebble wrestlers are policing themselves? I went to Emerald last weekend and used 5 stashed pads on a highball problem. If boulderers are lazy, then why am I able to hide my pads so well that the marmots can't find them? I will be up there next weekend when the crusade begins, and the inquisition won't even know where to find me. (and my 5 pads). Good day!

By skiclimber
Sep 5, 2007

Just a reminder, SCOTTISH FESTIVAL is this weekend. Good luck parking at Bear Lake and being a part of one of the busiest Saturdays in Estes all summer. For those of you who don't spend much time up there, you are in for a real crowded treat this Saturday.

Jim Wacjsentjsz, the day the park makes a new rule or regulation because of this issue and your irresponsible ways is the day I will hunt you down and go pagan style rambo on your pathetic lazy ways.

By beezdoit
Sep 5, 2007

Nice work Amy! and to the rest of y'all who try to keep our impact down to a dull roar, cheers. I'm sure there will be rangers there during the cleanup, so let's not screw up our image by "hardening" or "cleaning" any landings...and jayci, just my two centz, but I've heard that some of the gear "stolen" on longs was "stashed" on Broadway ledge out in the open...if you leave gear laying around, it's likely to be considered booty (BOOTY, yo!) If you're gonna leave gear up there, make damn sure it's well buried or at least label it with name/intended date of return or something.... Like pads, the park is likely to consider even boxed/canned stashes as either "trash" or abandoned property, so make sure the rangers don't find it....

P.S.. anyone want to buy some bootied gear? Haha. Just kidding. really.

By beezdoit
Sep 5, 2007

PS.

TAKE THE BUS!!!

HELL, TAKE THE BUS FROM TOWN, FOR THAT MATTER...

By Jim Wacjsentjsz
Sep 5, 2007

Skiclimber, see if you can find me. You will need your GPS, a Unimog, and prolly a mean, rabid dog. Call me lazy, but your granola gestapo tactics aren't going to stop me and my stashed pads. (All 5 of them, 2 are BD mondos). I stopped climbing trad when I onsighted .12c at Paradise Forks in 1996. Trad climbing is simply too easy and boring. And if I'm a jerk, I would hate to hear what God and the Devil are calling all you self-righetous and judgmental time-wasters. Good day!

By Allen Hill
From: FIve Points, Colorado and Pine
Sep 5, 2007

a "prolly a mean, rabid dog."

You ought to clean up your spelling as well as your fucking pads.

By Jim Wacjsentjsz
Sep 5, 2007

Allen Hill. "Probably" you won't be able to send my warmups. Is that the best you've got? My pads and I say "prolly" so.

By skiclimber
Sep 6, 2007

Jim Wacjsentjz said

"And if I'm a jerk, I would hate to hear what God and the Devil are calling all you self-righteous and judgmental time-wasters."

You are guilty of your own blames. Your comment makes you the self-righteous and judgmental time-waster.

By the way, I am far from a Granola. Can't stand them myself. I eat Beef and lots of it. Breathing and bleading if possible. I take showers, and I feel like vomiting when I smell patchouli or whatever that stuff is they bathe themselves in. Nothing is worse than a self-righteous, granola-eating, peace-preaching, spare-change begging, save-the-planet spraying, non-contributing-to-society, tree-hugging, ratnest-headed, bug-breeding, broke, SUV-driving, Trustafarian, Yippies of Boulder. That I am not Jim, so before you go calling out names and being a worthless name calling, and 12c onsighting in '96 spray lord, do your homework. Sucks to live in Boulder amongst the problem, 'cause there mutating and spreading like the pine beetle epidemic. And if you need to spray about your worthless, climbing accomplishments in Paradise Forks in '96 to make your ego and your worthless life feel better, then you came to the right website, but the wrong thread.

As for finding your pads, I don't need a Unimog to travel through the park. I have covered ground in the park carrying more gear than all your pads together over terrain you will never find, because there are no trails or mile markers for your sorry navigational skills, and you will never see them because of your lazy ways. For every Emerald Lake bouldering area, there are 10 more areas of equally untouched worthiness in the park.

So if I need a GPS great, what are the UTMs for your pads, I am sure I don't need the unimog, GPS maybe, So, let's have UTM Coords.

I don't care what you climb, how you climb, or how hard you climb, Your worthless climbing accomplishments don't mean a thing. The bottom line is you need to follow the rules so we can all continue to climb in our own ways however we enjoy them. If you don't then we all get screwed for your actions. I am not the one making the rules, I just follow them so we can all enjoy the park. Bottom line is you are violating NP rules, giving climbers a bad name, raising eyebrows, and ultimately going to ruin access for yourself as well.

You are the problem, Jim. You are the one that is being self-righteous by stashing pads and admitting to it to prove that you will do what you want at the rest of the communities expense. It is because of you that Adopt a Crag has to use its day to clean up pads in a National Park. It is not even a Crag for God's sake, but that is where the clean up is.

My advice Jim is to take Allen Hill's advice, read the previous post for instructions.

By Jim Wacjsentjsz
Sep 6, 2007

Skiboy,

You'll need a Unimog to ferry up the army needed to take down me and my posse. Don't forget your bowie knife 'cos, oops, I mean, because the wild boars up near my proj on top of Hallett are large, mean, and quite a bit hairy in between. Something you trad climbers know plenty about. I'm talking way way more hairy than Jane Fonda's workout at the Forks.

So, while I wait for the mini cooper to spill out its clown contents in the Bear Lake parking lot, please be so kind as to come up with something a bit more articulate, funny, and relevant to the situation up where we "wrastle them pebbles". Come on, I bet you can get "all riled up...."

P.S. The spelling tips are great, but I use the spell check button below. Thanks for the help.

By boardline22
From: Fort Collins, CO
Sep 8, 2007

I believe in leave no trace also. I think you should carry out what you carried in if not more.

What are you doing with all the old pads? I would be more than happy to buy some. The reason being is I attend CSU and a bunch of people from my floor just got into climbing/bouldering and with are limited income (aka students) we would give the pads good homes. We could probably by around 3 or 4 depending on the price. Maybe the profits will pay for your time or for supplies for other clean-ups/repairs.

Hope to hear from you soon
Matt

By bollocks
Sep 9, 2007

Looks like you'll have to pay retail pal, might be able to get a sweet deal on a used band-aid though.

By Jim Wacjsentjsz
Sep 11, 2007

bollocks,

i found your used needles at the "proj" under my 5 stashed pads. don't worry, i don't mind...but next time, leave me some pure.

soon i will send. in comfort. on many levels.

JW

By bollocks
Sep 11, 2007

little known fact, you can sharpen a used syringe on your jeans. run that bitch right across the grain of the denim and presto! you're ready to run that bitch. generally, by this time your heart's beating like a fucked clock and you're in no condition to deal with the pharmacist, so you do what it takes.

By font9a
Sep 13, 2007

Ensuring that liquids, gels, AND aerosols are strictly verboten -- and notwithstanding a recently upgraded ORANGE security alert -- I would henceforth advise that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES whatsoever should a stashed pad be left unattended. Duly advised: whither or not heretofore circumspect baggage from the cliff may be summarily confiscated and destroyed, without prejudice, your ass is: basically landing on grass.

Crank it!

-- font9a