Adding bolts to established lines

I got a call today from a good friend. My friend told me that he witnessed an ice climber ( rob cotter) adding two bolts to a route that I had established a few years back. The bolts were added to the last 5 or so feet of a route entitled Pitch Black in Vail. This addition would drastically change the route in such a way that it would and will bring the route down a grade, for real. My question to all climbers and especially first ascent people: is it right or when is it right for a second party to add bolts to an already climbed and established route and of course why would it be right? Personally I feel it is wrong and brings the already established and climbed route down to the level of the person adding the bolt(s) which of course in my mind is pathetic. So, should I chop em??? Rich Purnell

people either need to grow balls and have respect for other peoples routes and ethics and should never put any bolt on any route without asking opinions of the local community and/or the first ascentionist/s!!

This reminds me of the first bolt on serenity being chopped lastyear.
The chopper did not say anything to anybody or ask anybody to my knowledge. he wasnt the FA . did he have the right to Do that?

Chop-em... unless said bolter is much bigger and meaner than you...;-) Size creates right-of-way in some cases, eh? Just kidding, but seriously, if you are proud of your line, and you probably should be, I would give serious consideration to restoring the route to its former condition.

Adding bolts to existing lines that have been done numerous times is obviously one of the lowest acts of treason against fellow climbers. If route has been done, leave it alone. Just like the fellow on the Ames Ice Hose (I heard he wears a visor while ice climbing-lame). He tried to retrobolt the first pitch last year and this year. The first pitch is classic in lean years. It makes you sack up and find your own gear, just how the first/second ascensionists did it therefore setting the bar for all subsequent ascents.

Yes these are all things I have considered. This person knows how to get a hold of me and he knows how I feel about adding/retro bolting lines as we have climbed together many times. Route setting is an art, if the bolts stay the route looses its integrity.
Reasons to add bolts (in my opinion)
1. Bolt was rusted needs replaced.
2. Rock fall occurred and took out a bolt.
3. Consensus of others who have "climbed" the route or the 'go ahead' by the FA party to place more bolts.

Reasons "not" to add bolts
1. I fell there a couple times and dont want to fall again.
2. I cant do the route and am not good enough.
3. I am scared and need another bolt.
4. The ice isnt in the same place it was last year.

Part of our sport is history. Its us measuring ourselves against our own past climbs, but also against other climbers, both past and present. By adding a bolt to a route you are rewriting the history.
Thats not right.
I have had a number of my routes altered. I am opposed to it. Sorry this happened to you.

In the end, you don't own the route... but climbers should respect something. We should respect the conditions of the first ascent.
Sam
PS, Ice climbers should be the last people to go around adding bolts to an existing route... Clearly Rob spends most of his ice-time sipping cappacino.

Its always been the unwritten rule, that as the FA went so the route is defined. Kind of like a truce pact; once it has been violated all hell can break loose with many dire consequences. What would be best - if plausible - would be for you to have a "WTF?" discussion with the guy and get him to restore the route.

"My routes are bolted to exact specifications and are meant to create a "feel" be it scary, secure or inspiring."

well said Rich.

It's totally lame to add bolts like this to someone else's climb. I would pull them and have a talk with the offender.

Brad

Rich, i didn't mean to imply at all that you thought you owned the route. I hope thats clear. I made that statement cus thats always what it comes to in thiss discusssion... who owns it. Your question was posed in a clinical and unemotional way, which is really good of you. I'd be way more upset.
I need to point out, for posterity's sake, that I have added bolts to a few routes in Thailand during the rebolting process. This was never done to intentionally change the route, but simply because the previous gear was highly questionable and the authorities in Thailand were saying they would close climbing if a person died. With that a number of us decided that people taking whipers on a threaded piece of 5 mil (all that would fit) was not good, so a bolt was added. In any event, it was fixed pro... we just beefed up to a stainless steel bolt... that broke a year later!
Rich, good job on holding your temper... I'd be pissed.

No offense taken and I understand what you were saying Sam. Any route equipped by one person is a big undertaking and when something to this magnitude goes down its actually mind boggling and depressing in a way. Yes I am mad but I also know there is more to life than this sort of crap. I am just putting forth this information and question in hopes of making everyone aware of this sort of travesty. Its really not acceptable to me or most of my immediate friends therefore I cant believe that others see it as right and dont believe that most do. Yes the bolts will be chopped by myself sometime in the near future. Seems the backbone of mixed climbers has disappeared in the last few years, sad really.

Rich, I'm with you on this, the bolts should not have been added.

See you at the skatepark......

Aaron-all that writng for a piece of ice that is no longer there? YeezushMaria! A Series of Unimportant Events is what that was. Can you arrange a throwdown with #'s 1 and 3, this would become intersting.

Chop em! It's always up to the first ascentionist. Ask first!

Whoops, got off-track there. Please ignore the above response regarding my name. I almost hi-jacked the topic. Let's get back to the topic at hand:

richP - If the route was 'safe' in it's original condition, then adding bolts is probably unnecessary. If it were deemed 'unsafe', then I could understand asking the FA about adding more. That seems to sum it up.

I don't think the "safe" versus "unsafe" argument holds any water as far as adding bolts. First off, what one person considers safe someone else may consider to be unsafe. Does somebody want to go up and add bolts to Perilous Journey to make it "safe"?

Secondly, some of us still consider putting up a first ascent as an expression of our climbing style and ethics and not as a community service for climbers who will follow. That may seem selfish, but before the advent of rap bolting, that is the way most of the first ascentionists who I know, felt. With the advent of rap bolting, many climbers now feel that putting up a route is a community service for other climbers. I am not saying that one is better than the other, I am just pointing out that there are at least two different ways to look at putting up a first ascent.

Bruce

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:I don't think the "safe" versus "unsafe" argument holds any water as far as adding bolts. First off, what one person considers safe someone else may consider to be unsafe. Does somebody want to go up and add bolts to Perilous Journey to make it "safe"? Secondly, some of us still consider putting up a first ascent as an expression of our climbing style and ethics and not as a community service for climbers who will follow. That may seem selfish, but before the advent of rap bolting, that is the way most of the first ascentionists who I know, felt. With the advent of rap bolting, many climbers now feel that putting up a route is a community service for other climbers. I am not saying that one is better than the other, I am just pointing out that there are at least two different ways to look at putting up a first ascent. Bruce

Bruce gets it right, and if he isn't, I am willing to say one is better than the other. Putting up a route because an individual line obsessively grabs you such that you basically can't live until you figure it out is vastly superior to "development" where folks simply crank through lines rapping and bolting one after the other with more of a focus on the "crag" and their ego - eerrr, I mean community service - than the individual lines. As far as I'm concerned anytime we don't embrace, value, and appreciate everything each and every indivdual line offers up during an FA it's a real crime.

And that includes risk, sometimes even X-rated. 'Safety' or risk-free climbing as an entitlement is about as sad a thing as I can imagine and bolting down lines (even on FA's) to achieve it simply demeans the very word 'climbing' let alone all it has always meant. Is drytooling's contribution to ice climbing going to end up simply turning one of the worlds most audacious venues into risk-free sport-tooling clip-ups? Your route clearly deserves better and you should ask Rob to remove the bolts and do it yourself if he doesn't.

Rich,

Bruce DOES have it right. I've been wanting to repeat your route for awhile now and the start does detur me some but I'm waiting until I have the Huevos to just walk up and clip YOUR first bolt. That to me is one of the cruxes of that route. For someone to just bolt it because they are unable to repeat it otherwise just shows disrespect.

CHOP THOSE BOLTS!!

Jack Roberts

Chop, chop, chop away

I agree w/ everyone in general. Bringing climbing down to the lowest common denominator would ruin everything. In this particular instance, it sounds like the route is 'scary', but has a 'clean fall':

richP said "The bolts were added just to the right of the ice above me in the picture. It was one of the most amazing feelings pulling the ice dagger with space below - 80 feet off the ground. If you fell you were air born with no possibility of hitting anything, I know this as I fell off the damn thing numerous times. If you were scared then you could sink a screw in the ice with a long draw to clip low."

So, I guess what I am saying is that is sounds overly absurd to add more bolts when it already IS 'safe'.

Even if it was 'dangerous', the FA should still be asked, and get the final say though.

I have heard of old 'R' rated routes getting bolts added to them (after asking the FA). I guess that's all I was trying to say. Chop away richP.

Hmmm. Seems I might have been mixing bolts up abit.
Nevertheless. My point is once a route is sent and established then the challenge is to rise to the technical and commitment level of that route
and not to lower it to one's own standards. Each first ascent can not only be seen as an example of a climber's artistry but also allows for another way for others to experience climbing. Therefore no one has the right to alter a route which has been completed.

I grew up spending a lot of time down in Moab climbing wallstreet and up in SLC climbing in Big Cottonwood. The two areas differ greatly in the style of climbs. While I have no problem with the spacing in bolts in both of these areas, I really agree with something I read once about Kyle Copelands idea behind putting a lot of his first bolts 20' off the deck. Simply put-"If you can't make it to the first bolt, you shouldn't be on this climb". Climbs like Nervous in seburbia, Just another pretty face and others are really no more difficult after that first bolt, but I've noticed that it does keep people off them that honestly shouldn't be on them.

Big cottonwood's bolting tends to be closer and usually one within the first 8 feet of the climb. Again, I have no problem with this for several reasons. 1-it fits in with the general climbs there, 2-they are safe climbs 3-they tend to get a bunch more beginners to the area.

Now head to Maple or Wild iris where bolts are every 3 feet, and you can clip three bolts from any one stance and I think that you've taken something from the climb.

That said, climbs like delay of game in city of rocks, where people have died because of a run-out in the middle of a climb SHOULD have the added bolts (which they did after consulting the local ranger, and IIRC the FA party, as well as the local climbers).

To me, I agree with what's been said in that a climb shouldn't be seiged and dragged down to the average climbing layperson. It should honestly stay as close to the original FA vision of the route. That said, I have no problem with people fixing a route if they consult the FA, and local community.

Same goes for ratings. To me, I can couch climb 5.10s in Moab and on sand stone in general, and bad moki roof will always be a 5.7 to me, just like satans corner being a 5.8 in LCC. Once you get the feel of the area, you'll see how routes fit together with one another.

Now, me in J-tree, I certainly have a harder time climbing 5.9+ there than anywhere else I've been. Yes, I've heard from almost everyone that it's sand bagged, but I am withholding that judgement until I've had enough time down there to claim that I've truly experienced the area to know it. Then I will cast my vote, but as for now, a 5.8 is still a 5.8. I may flail on it, but that doesn't mean that it's any harder than a 5.8 in LCC, BCC, or Moab. Just that I have a harder time on it.

Guess to me, it comes down to routes fitting in with the area. Seeing bolted routes in Indian Creek, that could be top roped with minimal effort is obscene. Had I been there when it went up, I would have voiced my concerns then and there. But since it's been accepted by the many that climb there, I will point out I dont like it, and I wont climb it unless TR'd from the trad line next to it, but I respect the tradition of the route enough not to chop it.

When I did chrimson chrysalis in redrocks, I was deeply saddened to see the bolts next to such a beautiful, easy to protect hand crack. I plugged gear and bypassed them until the face section, which did indeed warrent their use. There's a time to bolt, and a time to mix it up. which leads me to my final statement.

I've found that over the past 10 years that people are opting to bolt entire routes that would, and in my boat SHOULD, go up in trad gear with a run out here or there. Instead of putting in one bolt for the single face move, they bolt the whole crack so more people can have access to it, without having to think or bring gear. To me, this is taking us down a bad road where a rack of quickdraws will get you up anything. This just adds to the arguement that climbers are leaving a huge impact on the rocks we climb, with bolts every 5 feet, and ugly webbing visible from over a mile away.