Mixed Climbing - Protection Ethics

With respect to climbing mixed & ice routes within an alpine setting on public property; are there ethics addressing protection like hammering pins?

Is it acceptable to lead a mixed/ice route placing pins as necessary?

Assume that for the sake of this post, there are no land management concerns either prohibiting or regulating climbing protection.

What is good style for a lead?

Definitely acceptable. In alpine and ice, pins are always acceptable. Nature of the beast, don't fall, and don't die, do what is necessary.

Just got my pins back out today!

Mark, IMHO, there is so much freeze-thaw in areas that form water ice, that pins are hardly an "ethical" issue in this form of climbing. Rock climbing is a totally different world. In Vail, whole blocks fall off routinely on mixed routes (see Secret Sickle). Alexander's Chimney, RMNP, is a good example of where you take anything on a mixed route. If you're referring to your photo/my comment at Lincoln on the left variation to Scottish gully (since you posted a photo about my comment), I didn't pound pins; however, with the ice as it appeared to form, I thought that an average idgit, like me, in certain conditions, might find rock gear hard to trust, ice screws impossible to trust, and pins the only sane options for pro. You are climbing on a 2nd pitch there. The best thing for a climber is to be able to come back another day to climb. Funny, turns out we did another pitch that day, I did this little pillar up and left. No pins. Couldn't find a good anchor to be below. My partner popped his tools, and I wound up with contused legs as I got dragged down into my anchor and basically did a flip. Peace.

When I don't have pins on the lead rack, one of my favorite pieces is the hammered in nut. Just watch your load direction.

There is only 1 rule to remember..
there are no rules..

Brian Tessier wrote:There is only 1 rule to remember.. there are no rules..

Hell yeah pins are acceptable. I climbed a route in Canada once and the pillar was too chewed up to get a screw. I wasn't going to climb it without pro, so a pin it was. Whatever it takes to save your ass.

Do you all always carry pins on you ice rack? If so, how many and what style/size?

Hell, ya.

Mostly arrows & blades. Those titanium thin arrows are pretty cool, lite as hell & strong; I beat on them good.

tap tap tap ting ting ting, ping, Ping, PIng, PINg, PINGGGGGGG

I'd say 4-6, but that can change

this thread certainly brings back some thoughts over the years.

Hmm, thanks. I will look into that. Never used a piton before...

Looks like you are from Maine! I used to climb there a lot. Pins are great when you need them but in New england since the rock is good if you can get a pin you can usually get some other kind of gear and there are many, many fixed pins in places like cathedral ledge or Cannon cliff and i have never had to place one Katahdin is a good example of a place to carry a small selection of pins if you are going to do some of the mixed routes up there. that said i once saw someone stack pins on cathedral ledge to do a first winter ascent.

In my experience pins seem to be more common in places where the rock sucks like ouray. freeze thaw pushes some old pins out or turns the rock around them to kitty litter and people place new ones. also when the rock sucks you can get pins in small cracks that have more solid rock around them as opposed to big awkward gear placements.

there definitely are no rules but lets not pound iron indiscriminately

Mark Nelson wrote:tap tap tap ting ting ting, ping, Ping, PIng, PINg, PINGGGGGGG

Mark Nelson wrote:Is it acceptable to lead a mixed/ice route placing pins as necessary?

Mark Nelson wrote:tap tap tap ting ting ting, ping, Ping, PIng, PINg, PINGGGGGGG