Double Rope Survey

Hi Everyone,
Thinking about buying some Edelweiss Double Ropes for Trad and Alpine routes. I already know most of the presumed benefits, BUT, I wanna hear your opinions on why or why not to use a double rope setup. Are they worth the pain of dealing with two ropes constantly? Let 'r rip.

Cheers!

my opinion is that, if you just plan on using these in the states, and micro weight is no issue.... go with double ropes (8.2 - 8.4mil) instead of "twin" (7mil?) for the sole reason that you can clip them separately, and are still safe... this is nice to reduce drag and avoid sharp edges more easily. twin ropes must (technically) be clipped together.

that is just my opinion, but i will say i have been climbing on doubles since early 90s, and i would not really think about switching to twins.
who wants to clip two ropes in the same biner? it is hard enough to get one in!
hope this helps...

for trad routes like Eldo, Lumpy, S Platte, I don't see the benefit over a single. For wandering alpine, I've gone with the 8.5 doubles/halfs (Edelw. Sharp). In climbing with a 3 person team, restacking sucks, but it works.

For a 2 person team, K Stricker offered to go with a single & a thin tag line (I think was about a 7mm). With the twins, you could split up the load during the approaches, but as the singles are reducing in size, maybe the single along with a tag-line is a better & more durable method over twins or doubles/halfs.

In going along with the posts in the gear section, we've noticed product development toward combining UIAA certs to almost make the double/half obsolete to the single cert; if strand size could be reduced further with cert specs meeting the single, we could certainly see the double/half cert going by the wayside. (I think the exception we found was Mammut, who have kept marketing more manageable strands rather than kN & elongation as comparable to strand size)

Dub's are also nice for the 200' rap ability. Trailing ropes sucks for many reasons. I don't use the dub's often, but for alpine/adventure climbing they are great!

I agree that half/double ropes are more versatile than twins. Being able to clip each rope separately is a huge advantage:

• wandering pro (have a left rope and a right rope)
• dicey clips (only pull up one rope, risking a shorter fall if you blow it)
• general rope-drag reduction (clip each rope alternately)

The weight savings of twins isn't worth losing the ability to do separate rope clips, in my opinion, unless you want them for some ultra-light alpine adventure.

I use my double ropes for alpine climbing, longer routes at Lumpy Ridge (where weather may be a factor), and on routes which require a two-rope rappel to get down. For local cragging, the doubles stay in the closet and I use my 50m, 60m or 70m single rope as needed.

I don't have much experience with the single rope/tag line combination, but see that it could have some advantages, especially if you are hauling a pack.

The half rope setup is really the shit for ice, alpine and long committing routes. I'm 200 lbs and the low impact force on ice screws and sketchy gear placements is a real selling point for me. As someone else mentioned, having 200' of rope for rapping is a HUGE advantage when the weather goes south on you. Something that isn't taught in most climbing and mountaineering courses is how to effectively and quickly run away from a bad situation. Most people learn this fundamental skill the hard way, during a thunderstorm or blizzard and may or may not have it dialed. On any committing route, having to make fewer rappels is sweet. In addition, if you are pulling your rope and it sticks, you have more options. E.G. you can prusik the stuck line while leading on the other 8.1 and place gear as you go to retrieve the other (I've done this). If you're short of gear on the descent that extra 100' of cord becomes sling material and you get to live by rapping on the other. Twins don't excite me nearly as much, I hope you consider going with the half rope system, there has never been a recorded complete failure of this system.

Actually one the things that really struck me the first time I climbed in the states about 20 years ago, was everyone climbing on single ropes and then doing short half rope rapps to get off.

Single rope for sport climbing, but just about everything else go double, and once you get use to it you won't go back. It provides safety, flexibility and ease of retreat when that afternoon thunderstorm hits.

Double ropes are the way to go, and they're much less complicated
to use than many people imagine.
At the risk of seeming self-promoting, here's a link to an article
on using double ropes on gunks.com. I wrote it several years back,
and it's a bit Gunks-centric, but the basics are correct.

gunks.com/index.php?pageid=…

One point the article doesn't make is that with two ropes it's
quicker to equalize an anchor than using a single rope + cordalette.

It's important to be clear on the distinction between twin ropes and
double ropes - doubles are the way to go for general cragging and alpine routes.

Have fun
Adrian

Tea wrote:Hi Everyone, Thinking about buying some Edelweiss Double Ropes for Trad and Alpine routes.

Tea -- In my book single ropes don't really go into the alpine world very often... just usually doesn't make sense.

Doubles/Twins -- you'll have to decide what suits your style (and concern for anchor impact as well as sharp edge safety) best.

The one thing I'll mention is that rapping on twins or ultra-skinny doubles can be quite a pain... it's either more like a slinky beyond the mid-way mark or you're holding part of the force of the rappel with your arms -- (even with a trango jaws and double biners). IMO, these things start to show up around ~8.5mm, and get considerably worse as you approach 8 mm and smaller ropes. Yes, you can get some specialty belay devices, but every climber you're with will need to have one too (or you have two).

Of course, some of the ~8mm ropes are 'approved' for double rope use or optional twin rope use. Look at the impact force for each!

Diddo Adrian's comment re: using double/twin ropes for anchors. If swinging leads with doubles, I don't even carry a cordelette. Very quick.

Cheers!

PS: how is it that the spell check on this site has 'boners' in the vocabulary, but not 'biners'

I really like double ropes for their versatility in all aspects of climbing. Many of the reasons I would state have already been mentioned. For me I prefer having two equally matched (strength, stretch and elongation) ropes that can be split between partners. In parties of three doubles allows the leader to simul-belay the other two which is fairly quick. The tag line for rapping never made sense to me. If your lead line gets stuck or cut are you really going to continue on with a teeny tag line? I have been using doubles for about twenty years. Currently I am looking at the Mammut 8mm doubles. Very nice rope.

I'm fond of the Beal 8.1's as half ropes, they perform well and are some of the lightest cord available. Sterling was making a marathon 8.4? that had a nice feel also.

Avery N wrote:  The one thing I'll mention is that rapping on twins or ultra-skinny doubles can be quite a pain... it's either more like a slinky beyond the mid-way mark or you're holding part of the force of the rappel with your arms -- (even with a trango jaws and double biners). IMO, these things start to show up around ~8.5mm, and get considerably worse as you approach 8 mm and smaller ropes. Yes, you can get some specialty belay devices, but every climber you're with will need to have one too (or you have two). 

Surely if there's difficulty holding just bodyweight on an abseil its going to be much harder to stop a severe leader fall with the same device setup.  

I really like double ropes. Everyone else has already mentioned reasons. The only one I have to add is a cut rope isn't guaranteed death anymore.

I'm going to replace my 8.3mm pair, was thinking 8.5mm mammut genesis this time around. Thicker mostly for belaying reasons and the 8.3mm isn't made anymore.

Now the 8.5mm opera could easily replace the genesis, but I'm leaning away from that path. These super skinny triple rated ropes will compromise on sheath to make the core big enough to survive the single rope test.

Maybe beal did some opera magic to bump durability compared to the older school genesis, I'd want some opinions on that before i bought it vs the tried and true 8.xmm doubles.

Now two regular doubles /and/ a opera, that I could dig :)

Been a big fan of Mammut Genesis for many pairs though looking at the Beal Operas for my next set. Doubles for the bill for long runout slab climbs with my less than gaunt frame!

I have Beal 8.1mm half ropes and I use them for basically anything multipitch these days. Nonexistent rope drag, full length rappels without bringing a second cord just for the rappel, great for climbing as a Party of Three with my two favorite homies. Be sure that your belay/rappel device is up to the task - I like the Mammut Smart Alpine in the smaller size range for climbing on doubles.

Jared Chrysostom wrote: I have Beal 8.1mm half ropes and I use them for basically anything multipitch these days. Nonexistent rope drag, full length rappels without bringing a second cord just for the rappel, great for climbing as a Party of Three with my two favorite homies. Be sure that your belay/rappel device is up to the task - I like the Mammut Smart Alpine in the smaller size range for climbing on doubles.

Which 8.1 Beal ropes do you have? I'm considering getting their Ice Line but a bit worried about durability on rock.

i shore wrote:

Surely if there's difficulty holding just bodyweight on an abseil its going to be much harder to stop a severe leader fall with the same device setup.  

Two biners on rappel increases friction significantly.  Use a prusik backup on rappel.  

No one has ever brought up the difficulty of holding a fall with half or twin ropes that l am aware.  Has this been a point of difficulty for climbers?  If it was sketchier than it is beneficial, it would not be the go-to best method for multi-pitch. 

Stiles wrote:

Two biners on rappel increases friction significantly.  Use a prusik backup on rappel.  

No one has ever brought up the difficulty of holding a fall with half or twin ropes that l am aware.  Has this been a point of difficulty for climbers?  If it was sketchier than it is beneficial, it would not be the go-to best method for multi-pitch.

I wasn't suggesting that using half ropes was not a very good system. I just noted that if braking was difficult on an abseil then it would be even harder to hold a severe leader fall (if one is for example using two krabs when belaying then it would seem sensible to use the same for abseils if they are too fast). I have seen people saying they need to provide extra braking (extra krab, under leg etc) for abseiling, but illogically using the same tube device for belaying with no additional braking.
I think in fact there is some disadvantage to braking with half ropes.....if both ropes share the load of a leader fall then there is greater braking force than if theoretically just one half rope had been in the hand. However (as is often the case) if only one rope takes the force, when runners on each rope are at different heights, then the braking force is substantially less (presumably due to the stationary rope impeding gripping the moving rope). That is not to say that half ropes aren't often the best system.

It is a bit of a head scratcher, people leading with ropes and devices that they have (some) trouble holding body weight loads when abseiling. The best guess I have is that belayers aren't catching hard falls very often in the environments you'd bring double/twin ropes.

Can anyone comment? Is the logic that if its not enough to abseil its not enough to lead belay flawed? Do you have a rope+device that doesn't give enough friction to comfortably abseil but can catch a decent fall without drama?

I don’t think the logic is flawed; I think it is far more likely that many users of skinny ropes have a false sense of security.

Ryan Mac wrote:

Which 8.1 Beal ropes do you have? I'm considering getting their Ice Line but a bit worried about durability on rock.

I have the Ice Lines. Haven’t fallen on them yet so maybe IGD, but they show no wear after a few dozen pitches. I can’t really speak to long-term durability yet.