Who Buys It?

Interesting question posed this weekend. I fished out a camalot for someone (needed three nut tools & a good deal of patience -- it was stuck):

Who is responsible for replacing the gear that becomes fixed? The leader who jammed it in the crack or the second who couldn't get it out? Or, does it depend on the situation??

In my book, it depends on the situation. I would feel responsible for replacing it if
(a) I was leading, and I overcammed it, or didn't properly sling it to eliminate walking, or
(b) I was following and moved it incorrectly while trying to clean it.

However, I have cleaned way more cams than I have fixed. One of my friends (Matt) once replaced a cam of mine after borrowing my rack to take his girlfriend climbing. She was pretty novice, and didn't know exactly how to clean gear. I went up the next day and was able to get my cam back with some very creative effort and help from three very patient friends. I gave Matt the new cam back, since I was able to get mine, but many years later, I bought it from him for $20.

If ever a stranger cleans and returns your fixed gear, please buy him/her a sixer of beer or something. They just saved you a $50 replacement fee.

Assuming both parties are competent at placing and removing gear, I've always felt that the cost should be shared. If a cam is sacrificed to a route, both parties are invested in climbing the route, and both parties should share in the cost of climbing that route...whether it be hiking your share of the gear to the base, splitting the gas to drive there, or splitting the cost of anything that gets left behind.

I've only lost one cam. My partner was leading a pitch. I don't know if he welded it, if it walked back in, or whatever, but I couldn't get it out. He offered to buy a new cam, I split the cost with him.

Lee, that definitely seems reasonable.

If I am leading, it is my fault. I suck up the loss.

If I am following, I offer to pay, even if it wasn't my fault, I suck up the loss.

Losing and finding gear is a part of climbing. It isn't worth losing a partner over a piece of gear. If you find that your partner is a dick about it though, perhaps this tells you what kind of partner you have.

I can't imagine ever asking a partner, "Hey bro, you fixed my cam. Can you buy me a new one?" I agree with John. Better to just consider it a donation to a great climb. We've all found gear that others have donated I'm sure.

I'm with John on this one, in theory. See the post 2 positions above.
I have not left a piece of gear from a partner for about the last 13 years, but I have had a few left on me... Still, I wouldn't dream of not offering to at least split the cost, or if I have a similar piece of gear around, giving it to them.
I also would not ask for anything, and people usually offer to pay full price anyway. If it is a nut or something I have a bucket of in my basement, I tell them to forget it- I have a ton of Booty nuts I can fill in my rack with. If it is something more (like a cam) I counter-propose their offer to split the cost instead.
I can only speak for myself, but I suspect we both come out feeling OK about it. If someone were to not offer to split the cost at least, I wouldn't demand anything. I'd just never mention it and never climb with them again. I just don't hang out with that kind of crowd. It would be worth the $50 loss just to be rid of that sort of person.

good responses. most people I've been with offer to replace. Sometimes, I have enough time to go back & take a look at a fixed piece and extract it; I think a good deal of fixed gear becomes fixed as the leader can't get into a stance to put a good piece in or they yard or ram something in that doesn't really need to be jacked into place. Then, a seconding climber doesn't take a look to see how a piece got to where it was and start working it into a worsened position; or they fear letting go of the rock to work on something with two hands; in any case, end up putting a piece into a worsened position.

Overall, though, I find most people cooperate to do something reasonable to replace gear. I think that's pretty fair; not any situation is the same.

I've had one piece escape me, it's still on N table next to Shadow, a Metolius 00. I've tried everything I know of. I'd say it's fixed -- it's been there for a couple of years.

Overall, climbing is less expensive than a lot of other sports, so any unexpected losses of mine during a trip or outing I don't worry about too much. I've found plenty of gear which seems to even it out a bit.

Although, if I had to leave someone else's gear, or if I dropped their stuff, or if I knew I stuck a piece, I'd probably offer to replace it. Tickets or fines... I'd pay for half if we were riding together.

I seem to be able to remove stuck gear quite well by figuring out how it was slotted, and working on it with little tricks I learned from trial, and error, i.e., it helps to have two nut tools. I've been lucky, and have never left a stuck cam that I had to work on. I've only had to leave one stuck nut that I gave up working on, because it was 100 degrees, and I wasn't in the mood. I've wasted my time accidentally removing a couple of very stuck nuts that weren't my partners. Damn things gave me bloody knuckles. I think everyone, unless they are new to the game, should try their best to work on stuff if they can. It's good practice. Of course, I'm talking sandstone; I imagine it may be more difficult to remove stuck gear in some other types of rock. We'll see....

Gigette Miller wrote:Overall, climbing is less expensive than a lot of other sports, so any unexpected losses of mine during a trip or outing I don't worry about too much. I've found plenty of gear which seems to even it out a bit. Although, if I had to leave someone else's gear, or if I dropped their stuff, or if I knew I stuck a piece, I'd probably offer to replace it. Tickets or fines... I'd pay for half if we were riding together.

Climbing is pretty expensive if you ask me. For the gear alone, which is what we are talking about. Sure lift-access skiing is ridiculously expensive these days, as well as heli-skiing and skydiving. However, most other sports are LESS expensive than getting started in climbing (e.g. building a rack).

You'll pay part of a fine or ticket if you aren't driving? If I didn't ask or help them to break the law, I don't believe I'm at all responsible for the consequences.

Ah, I don't know. Climbing can be as cheap as you want it to be. Once you've got everything, you are pretty much set. You could really get everything you need for years for a couple hundred dollars.

I've been in situations on a long drive where my friend got a speeding ticket, gladly ponied up for half the fine. It could have been me a half hour earlier and I'm sure he would have done the same. $50 on a cam or ticket is never worth hard feelings in my opinion.

Mark: Thanks for recovering my .75 Camelot on Sunday. I'm confident that I placed it correctly, and when my second finally got to the top of the pitch, he indicated that he had inadvertently pushed it in when trying to recover it, and it got stuck. He even offered to pay, but I told him not to worry about it. When I got down, I was prepared to do some fishing to retrieve it (I haven't lost a cam yet), but you beat me to it. Thanks again.

Had it truly become a piece of "fixed gear," I would have chalked it up to the price of admission for a fun day of climbing and simply purchased a new one with no questions asked.

It seems to me that a good rule of thumb should be that where two long-term partners are climbing and a piece gets lost, stuck or damaged, that they should voluntarily share the replacement cost. But even here, if my partner was uncomfortable paying some portion, I would just drop the issue and replace the gear on my own account (whether his gear or mine).

However, where, as in Sunday's example, I had volunteered to take up a relatively new climber using my gear, rope, etc., then I am accepting the risk of loss or damage and thus I should be willing to pay the price if that occurs. Putting that burden on a less experienced climber who I have not previously climbed with doesn't seem equitable, and I would not do it.

Best regards, Tom Stocker

Adam Catalano wrote:Climbing is pretty expensive if you ask me. For the gear alone, which is what we are talking about.

If you consider how many years of use you'll get from most of your gear, it's inexpensive. Hell, I've spent more on my arts, and crafts projects overall in the same length of time I've used my gear. I've spent more going to amusement parks in the same amount of years I've made use of my climbing gear. Maybe if I had to buy every new piece of gear that came out, then it would be very expensive in my eyes, but I'm not a gear whore yet. And with a National Parks pass, very little of my "fun" money is spent, aside from the gear I already own.

Golfing, sailing, scuba diving,skiing and the costs of the lifestyle that come along with those sports, now that's expensive! Of course there are cheaper sports, but I'm not interested in most of those, unfortunately.

Adam Catalano wrote:You'll pay part of a fine or ticket if you aren't driving? If I didn't ask or help them to break the law, I don't believe I'm at all responsible for the consequences.

If I begged him to slow down.... No
but if I was just as guilty for not caring about him speeding...Yes.
Any climbing related fines....Yes.
If he's a REALLY good partner, I may even bail him out of jail (depending on the crime, of course)

Have a nice day Y'all. I'm going to enjoy the rest of my lunch break.:)

Gigette Miller wrote: If he's a REALLY good partner, I may even bail him out of jail

I'm all for getting Glime out of jail for his antics; the world's a better place with him in it. Protesting trunkless in a national park, ok, that's a new one for me.

Mark Nelson wrote: I'm all for getting Glime out of jail for his antics; the world's a better place with him in it. Protesting trunkless in a national park, ok, that's a new one for me.

And don't forget about the gerbil in the crack picture....Ooops, I mean mouse.

A Universal law of "Who Pays for Lost Gear" seems unreachable, but I find the posts here very comforting. At least the people posting here all seem to be nice climbers; fair minded, unlikely to hold a grudge, not willing to let the loss of a piece of gear damper their passion for climbing, etc... Personally, I like to pretend that for every piece of gear you lose, you find a replacement for; whether it be booty gear, or a long-lasting partner, or even some hard-won climbing wisdom. I guess what I'm saying is, meeting new climbing partners is more than worth the risk of losing some gear, because there are a lot of cool climbers out there.