The high cost of putting up routes. Taking routes for granted.

Stainless steel bolt 89 cents to $1.25, Hanger $1.70, Two bolt anchors, $10 - $20. Your average 8 bolt two anchor route costs close to $30. Drills $550, Drill bits $6/ 20-30 holes depending on how hard the rock is. Yet in all the years that I or anyone else I know has been putting these routes up only a handful of folks have ever offered to help out with these costs. Have you ever given your local route setter a $20? How about a thank you? How about a handful of hangers? Why not? Some people who do this have a trust fund or a pro deal but that is not the case for most drillers. I bring this up not because I need the money myself. Heck, it's cheaper entertainment than coke and I get to decide where and when you get to clip. The question is at what point do you step up and say you are going to contribute to your climbing community in a positive way. I say find your local Driller and slap a twenty in their hand or more if you clip a lot.

I agree. I just spent my Sunday putting up a line on what is to be the next 5.10 route on South Mountain...Yes I said South Mountain. I now appreciate the work that must go into doing this on routes that may be more difficult with larger approaches..Kudos to all those that make my weekend climbs a blast!

I hear your pain friend but I don't feel it, we decide to set routes, find new areas, spend hours on new lines. Hangers and cash are just too much to ask for, people bitch enough (about routes) with out giving up their money.

I bolt for myself first; I like the line and I'm willing to put up what it takes (money and labor) to set that line. Second; if I leave a finished route that other climbers want to do, that's the "Thank You". (I pick my new lines very carefully)

I know a lot of route setters, (20+) some get pro deals, (maybe a box of hangers or two a year for free) others just get together and buy large amounts of hangers/studs (1,000) at a time. (money talks get in on one of those buys)

Just have fun doing it and let me say Thanks. I've climbed at the Homestead.

First of all, if you're paying 89 cents to $1.25 for bolts, then either:

a) they are not stainless steel
b) they are not intended to protect lives
c) you are already getting a wholesale deal

More importantly, I've never met a routesetter that had to be dragged out kicking and screaming to put up routes. Everyone I've known has been very self-motivated, and they keep their developments a secret to prevent other climbers from stealing the "goods". If you were bolting it solely to provide climbs for other people, you wouldn't care who bolted it.

If you set routes, it's to satisfy your ego with the glory of the FA. You may convince yourself that it's charity, but you don't fool me!

If you want to do charity, replace existing anchors on popular routes that are worn out...that is something the community really needs. Putting up FA's is not charity.

Last time I went to buy SS bolts (3/8 x 3-3/4) the dealer said $113 for a box of fifty. I said "wow, seems like they were cheaper last time". He said "The price is better if you buy 100". I said "How much for 100 ?". Him "$112". Talk about a no-brainer.

Eric, forget about the public, I'd be happy if my partners kicked in. A quality chain draw costs about $16...chain, omega bent-gate, screw-link, epoxy putty, hanger, bolt, paint, drill bit wear, loctite.

I have developed a bolt/hanger combo that is patent pending.
It will require the user to insert a quarter (25 cents) into a slot.
Once the quarter is inserted, the hanger springs out into a clipable postion. For every eight bolt route with a two bolt anchor I net $2.50
I'll get rich off of the popular lines.
Coin bags will replace chalk bags on lead.
All joking aside, as one who has placed many hundreds of bolts on sport climbs, I never gave reimbursement a moment's thought.
I know many others who have spent thousands of dollars to equip routes and none of them thought twice about the expenditures either.
Ego plays as big a part of route setting too. It seems to compensate for the extra expenditures. My bolts, my route! Dogs piss on trees, which is only smelled by other dogs. Climbers bolt on cliffs, which is viewed by other climbers.

I get my bolts from copperstate in phx, they told me I would get a better deal if I had an account. I am in the process of starting a business to that end. Some friends have been kind enough to give me $ and material. Most just climb the stuff and I enjoy basking in their admiration. At least that's what I like to think. Mostly it's because I want to create something I enjoy. I have begun to ask for donations to replace anchors at some of the areas in the phx area but I haven't had a response from ARI or ASCA yet. I'll have to try the local shops and maybe AMC. BTW, the 110 bolts for $112 sounds great, pm me and let me know how I can get in on that deal. M

jbak wrote:Last time I went to buy SS bolts (3/8 x 3-3/4) the dealer said $113 for a box of fifty. I said "wow, seems like they were cheaper last time". He said "The price is better if you buy 100". I said "How much for 100 ?". Him "$112". Talk about a no-brainer.

Yeah, Mountain Gear has them on their website:

mgear.com/pages/product/pro…

It's $3.20 for a zinc 3/8" x 3.5" Powerbolt and $10.95 for the SS version. Granted, you would be stupid to buy bolts from Mountain Gear, but retail shouldn't be that much higher than wholesale.

Current price from Copper State for Powers 3/8" x 3 3/4" Stainless Power Stud is $1.22 ea, min purchase of 100 pcs for that price. These bolts (quality name brand) are the bolts jbak is referring to. Power Bolts are costlier but not needed (my opinion) in rock such as granite which I believe is JB and Eric's medium they most commonly drill. The Power Bolts are usually used in softer rock or rock with voids such as sandstone, tuff, clastic flows, etc... The Stainless Power Stud listed above embedded 3" into 2000 psi concrete has a tension load of 4800 lbs and a shear of 5390 lbs. The Stainless Power Bolt embedded 3 1/2" in 2000 psi concrete has a tension load of 5585 lbs and a shear of 8770 lbs. These numbers go up in higher psi concrete and most rock is a lot harder than concrete. Good luck breaking or pulling either of them.

OK, that sounds about right. Yeah, I usually go with the powerbolt for the softer rock you mentioned.

They are good for granite, but you can't get them out. You're probably already doing this, but in case other people are reading this thread: With the studs, I would advise you to drill the hole a half to an inch deeper than needed so that when it comes time to replace them, the stud can be pounded into the hole, flush with the rock so the hole can be patched.

Mike Anderson wrote: With the studs, I would advise you to drill the hole a half to an inch deeper than needed

Hey Mike. There is no glory in FAs anymore. Any idiot with a drill can put up a great route. I watched one of the more prolific route setters in Tucson on a 5.10 stand in slings to clip a bolt that is no more than six feet above the one he yelled "take" on, rather than make the moves and possibly fall off. Drill enough lines and some percentage will be great. Dog them long enough and you can get up them as well. Glory does not come to people setting routes it comes to those who head (ground up) into the great unknown. It comes to those who walk up to a route they have never seen and give it their all. It comes to those who despite their fear step up and go for it even if the bolt is at their knees. We put up new routes for a ton different reasons ego is only one. But that is not what this thread is about. It was to see if any non-drilling people feel they contribute in any way. Trash clean-ups, self directed trail maintenance, things like that. And maybe also to get them to realize they are getting a screaming deal and that they really should pitch in a bit. Also since you mentioned people hiding their "secret areas" if you or anyone else is interested you are more than welcome to join us anytime to put up routes. Come join the glory train just bring your wallet. Tongue in cheek at least the glory train part.

Believe it or not, some climbing areas like Pinnacles National Monument in central California still observe the ground-up ethic when putting up first ascents. There are very few cracks in this volcanic rock so it's pretty much bolts drilled on lead. And no power drills allowed!

I kind of bristle when I hear the term "route setter". When I am 25' out from the last bolt trying to stand on some slopers long enough to hand drill a 3/8"x3" hole before I either fall or collapse the term "route setter" doesn't seem to fully capture the nature of the ascent.

There are still adventures to be had out there when doing new routes. You just have to go find them.

Bruce

Right on Bruce! You are a first ascentionist. Or do we call it Adventure route setter? Or trad setter, or trad first ascentionist. Jesus, I didn't realize starting this thread would make me have to think so much. ERIC step away from the computer. Nah! I drilled my first bolt in the needles of SD with a rock because I forgot the hammer. That was 25+ years ago. I have done ground up and top down. I love ground up for longer routes and short if the pro is good. Sometimes a higher overall quality route can be (created, developed, lead, set?) by rapping down and top-roping different avenues up an area of rock. Warpaint in Cochise's Stronghold went up in a day with only 12 bolts in 5 pitches of mostly slab climbing. On 5 subsequent visits we found an entirely new first pitch that did go ground up. We moved the start of the third pitch farther left then joined the original one half way up after top roping it, I think. We added a whole lot of bolts to the R/X pitches so it would be a great 5.10 route for 5.10 climbers instead of a "interesting" 5.10 climb for 5.12 climbers. Listen, I love a good adventure. I think it is so cool when you get to the smooth blank section I have seen from the ground and you begin running out of holds but you press on and just when you need it an edge or sidepull lets you get to the belay ledge or more holds. It takes more guts to press on into the great unknown, that is for sure. Back to your statement I dislike the term as well but at times that is what I am. My brain hurts.

I highly disagree that "any idiot with a drill can put up a great route." Around here, it's more like any idiot with a drill can put up a crappy route...and they do!

If you're putting up great routes, then good on ya, but these days it's rare. Face it; most of the good stuff has been done. Many times I've wished I had been born 15 or twenty years earlier when places like Shelf, Penitente, Smith Rock, St George were still undiscovered...oh well.

I think modern-day developers should be cognizant that many climbers may not appreciate what you are doing, so when you go and ask for donations, you better brace for impact. If you want to put up routes, do it for yourself because there is a good chance the community doesn't consider it to be a service.

I certainly agree that all users of the resource should contribute in some way, most likely by picking up trash, or helping out on trail days. They are not obligated to reimburse you.

Mike, you give a monkey a typewriter (read, word processor) and he'll eventually type out Shakespeare. So it is with routes. There are also pieces or stone that not even the biggest doofus could fail to bolt a good line on.

I've put up hundreds of routes since I started climbing in the seventies, and I'm still doing it. It's certainly way more challenging now, which makes it even more special when you find a true gem. I liken it to treasure hunting. The thrill of discovery will always be the drug that keeps me coming back. (That and a cold beer at the end of the day.)

I think you miss the point about Eric asking for a little back. It's not about the money, it's about trying to get people to understand just how much time, effort, and money, someone else has donated so they can climb all weekend. Free Gratis.

I don't care if they think my routes are great, or piles of crap, but it would be nice to hear someone say just once, "man I'll bet that route took some effort to put up!" It also seems to me the ones that do the most bitching are the ones that have never put up a route themselves.

As far as the "ego of the FA" is concerned, Eric and I often give away the FA and naming rights to a route we have cleaned and drilled. Just because we want to share the excitement of an "FA" with a fellow climber. But you know, with the exception of one person, no one has ever offered to pay for the bolts and anchors on the route they just got to climb and name. I find this mindset sad and disturbing.

While we are sort of talking about bolts, where is a good place to get some Rawlins 5 piece for a decent price? Most places I see is nearly $4 a piece.

Merk, Jim is referring to "The Infinite Monkey Theorem" which goes something like this: "If you take an infinite number of monkeys and set them down at typewriters, eventually they will come up with Hamlet". There are many versions of this out there. Isn't it interesting what nonsense we can learn while wasting time on the computer?

I just have to ask the question, if someone is so concerned with dishing out the cash for a box of 1000 bolts, hangers and drill bits, why don't you just buy a good trad rack and climb? Instead of arguing about how you had the great ethics of drilling holes in a perfectly good crack climb from the ground up, slap a cam in that crack and keep climbing. blah, blah, blah... I think I met that monkey the other day!

Speers wrote:I just have to ask the question, why don't you just buy a good trad rack and climb?