The Ames Ice Hose, Bolted?

where does guideline #1 come in? i too disagree with this bolt but i also disagree with the way some people have been handling the situation. the bolt is now removed, hopefully not to be replaced but who committed the worse crime? the guy who put it there or some of the people commenting who totally blasted him? come on, a lynching? this guy is a human just like all of us, even the ones who think their shite don't stink. i know if it was me and i made a mistake i would hope to get a little compassion from my fellow brethren. and yeah, the climbing community all agrees that it was a mistake so have a little faith that chuck will come around. maybe in the future this will teach me to be more kind to those whom i disagree with.

and who is mugs stump?

My understanding is that this started much more civily (sp?), and escalated when Chucky boy wasn't listening to reason.

PS- i hope your trolling, if you don't know who Mugs is, YOUR VOTE DOESN"T COUNT!!!!

Chuck's actions are a cry for help. Will someone please take him climbing so that one day he can climb the Hose sans bolt? I'm serious here: help him grow a fat sack for serious routes like this everywhere. Then he can atone for his errant drilling by spreading the gospel of personal improvement. I see him making quite an impact as the ghost of climbers past, burdened by his chains and bolts, clanking around the the sport park at night.

PS--He doesn't need to know who Mugs Stump is to "get it"...just look at how Will Gadd has stopped using heel spurs.

Just Kidding! Sheesh! Chuck was just asking for it though. Amazing that we have moved onto a generation that might not know who Mugs is. I must be getting old:-(. Wish I could have met em. Respecting the first ascent is about respecting those who came before you. That's all there is to it. Common sense, no? Good to here from the legends of our time. Listen to their wise words.

Unfortunately, ole Chuck just doesn't seem to get it. This is a letter that Chuck wrote to the editor in the Telluride Daily Planet in defense of the bolt he placed, pretty amazing that someone actually has these thoughts about climbing. Read on:

Dear Editor,

I have lived in the Telluride region for five years and have been mountaineering in one form or another for about that long. I have nothing to prove to anyone. I climb just because I love it. I mentor younger climbers as best I can in my spare time and enjoy learning from others.

After climbing the Ames Ice Hose several times this year, reviewing the antique state of the anchors, witnessing 30-foot and 50-foot ground falls with luckily just minor injuries, and seeing the rapid deterioration of the resource, the climb began to bother others and myself in the climbing community. The first anchor is made up of an old rusty piton and a rusty quarter inch bolt tied together by a rat's nest of webbing. Some climb past this anchor, while others top rope the first pitch. Plus there is no reliable protection for the first 30 feet of the alternative rock route being climbed this year because of lower ice levels; you basically have to free solo it before you can get any protection in. As a consensus among the people I climb with, we placed one bolt as a compromise, two are actually needed, to protect the 30 foot ground fall on the alternate rock route and planned to replace the first anchor as our next project. The original ice route remains untouched. Since the leaders in the climbing community were not policing themselves a new group had to step up to the plate. This was not an effort by just one person.

Feedback from local climbers I have received ranges from "I am so glad you put a bolt there, that is a death climb," to "what you did and the way you did it was highly inappropriate." The negative comments come primarily from those who have placed literally thousands of bolts themselves in the region or from the elite local guides. They make me feel that I have impinged on their territory or power structure in some way. The positive feedback comes from the regular climbers, other guides, as well as Search and Rescue instructors that often risk their own lives when someone else gets hurt.

Some of those with negative opinions have gotten a little out of hand. Folks who are supposed to be the award winning elite in our community have spammed my e-mail address which I had to change, given out my phone number, and blogged almost every major climbing magazine and Web site all about one lousy bolt placed with nothing but the best intentions. Not a single person with a negative opinion has taken the time to get to know me, to find out what route we are talking about, replace the dilapidated anchor, or just take a deep breath first. If this is how our most senior leaders and first ascenders behave, vengeful and angrily, then maybe we need new heroes.

As far as I am concerned, you can make climbing as scary as you and your family want, but safety first for the community at large. If you want to show off, then do not clip the bolt and run it out or free solo the entire route. It is hard to see how some climbers who have placed thousands of bolts in the region like a rivet gun, have anything to complain about one bolt on an alternative route. This is especially true for climbers who cannot lead the pitch or who do not even ice climb. I am sure you will be hard pressed to find a single regional route bolted by these folks with the first bolt 30 feet off the ground above demanding climbing with no logical, clean alternative.

As our weather warms or droughts continue, we are going to have to deal with more limited ice climbing conditions. Several southwest Colorado climbs are not climbable this year because of none or unprotectable ice on the first pitch. They include other classics such as The Talisman, The Ribbon and Birdbrain Boulevard. Do not shoot the messenger.

Then I get "you just have to be a better climber," from the naysayers. I am not the world's greatest climber, but I try to lead ice climb about three days a week. This year I have lead climbed the right side of Ingram Falls four times, the Ames Ice Hose four, plus Bridal Veil and Cornet a couple just to mention a few. If I am not ready who is? I have snow and waterskied for over 30 years, but I do not look down my nose at anyone who has skied less.

I have also had negative feedback from some of the original first ascent climbers to whom I meant absolutely no disrespect. I am disappointed in the first place some are more concerned about preserving their accomplishments than safety or getting the facts straight. For example, alluding that adding a bolt flies in the face of the original ethic. First, these climbers do not climb with the same gear they used 30 years ago either so what is their point. Importantly though, we are not talking about the original ice route; it remains untouched. Before you haul off and conjure up the meanest e-mail you can, get the facts straight.

Then, I hear, "you will just fall in the snow." Fine, be my guest, free solo up the first 30 feet and jump. I think this is where the term "social Darwinism" came from. One of my climbing partners was injured by a crampon when saving one of the parties who fell 30 feet. Remember, you are ground falling loaded with sharp ice screws, ice axes and crampons, plus there is a rock ledge to avoid on your way down and a log at the bottom under low snow conditions. And finally I get, "it has been climbed the same way for 30 years." Actually the alternative rock route is not the same. The bomber flake the first ascenders were able to grab has come off and the only seam to place a small aid nut is now almost busted out. The rock resource is deteriorating quickly from all the crampon traffic and must be preserved for future generations.

Most dedicated climbers have read "Into Thin Air" or "Touching the Void," but not too many have read "Where the Mountain Casts Its Shadow." The latter book tells the story of the wives that have lost their husbands on Everest and the personality profiles of those climbers. For me, I am not trying to make history every time I climb, get my picture in a guidebook, or be apart of an elite clique. I just want to get outside and come home to my family.

I am not telling anyone how he or she should think. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. That is fine. But, if you do not have anything good to say, keep it to yourself, especially if you are a leader in the community and when you do not know the other person involved or the complete circumstances. I wrote this to enable those concerned about safety to be able to voice their opinion and not be intimidated by others.

If the bolt is replaced again, it will not be by me. But I guess it will mean that there are other climbers out there who realize climbing is just a sport. Live and let live.

Chuck Burr

Not a single person with a negative opinion has taken the time to get to know me, to find out what route we are talking about, replace the dilapidated anchor, or just take a deep breath first.
is especially true for climbers who cannot lead the pitch or who do not even ice climb.
For example, alluding that adding a bolt flies in the face of the original ethic. First, these climbers do not climb with the same gear they used 30 years ago either so what is their point. Most dedicated climbers have read "Into Thin Air" or "Touching the Void," but not too many have read "Where the Mountain Casts Its Shadow." The latter book tells the story of the wives that have lost their husbands on Everest and the personality profiles of those climbers. Chuck Burr

Chuck, if you've been slandered on every public climbing website and through emails, phone calls, etc., post up here, in a climbing forum with real climbers rather than trying to take your argument to a paper that prints to a large collection of nonclimbers who do not know the true situation. Hey, if anyone has Chuck's new email address or phone number, let me know because I'd love to chat. Your letter to the editor is full of bad logic and irrelevancies. Thank you for replacing the old anchor, but don't try and hide behind that for your actions of retrobolting a line. Again, if you deem the line unsafe, find another line. You say that first ascentionists think that they are heroes, what great being do you think you are to come in and change something that has stood for nearly three decades?
Why must we lower this route to the lowest common denominator for those who are not competent leaders or are new the sport entirely? Send them to the Ouray ice park to top rope. Don't mess with existing lines. If you led it this year, 4 times in fact, good for you. There's no need to repeat it then if you think it is unsafe.
What do you mean by not using the same gear as they did 30 years ago being irrelevant? Their gear was crappy and scary and hard to place. Things are now way easier, so are you saying that because they had the balls you didn't and that gear has changed so the route should change? That's faulty logic. By thinking gear is better, then there should be less skill involved in leading the route.
I have read all three books you have mentioned, and don't see how any of the three relate to this topic. "Where the Mountain Casts their Shadow" was written by the girlfriend of a British climber who died on Everest and asked many other wives/girlfriends of alpinists pushing today's standards. This route is no Everest and it is hardly pushing standards. If your wife/girlfriend is worried about you climbing, find another route. Your article is written to the uninformed layman to try and provide a convincing argument that falls way short in the climbing community. Just because your friends who are also gumbies approved of the bolt does not mean the community as a whole does. Rarely if ever does the climbing community approve of a retrobolt.
Chuck, think of this before you try and bolt a route again or try to look like a martyr in the paper, every time some guy feels he will take matters into his own hand to "help" the community out and the community lashes back, you make climbers as a whole look bad. Don't care about that? You will when access becomes an issue and you can't even climb the routes you try and alter. If you had to change your email address and perhaps your phone number because climbers keep letting you know how wrong you were, how self righteous do you have to be to not listen to that many people and think you and your buddy were correct. Admit you were wrong, or at least promise not to retrobolt and people will let it die and stop making threats.

Whoa! To put it mildly, Chuck's response to his actions is simply unbelievable. There really is no defense for his actions. If you can't climb the route in the style of the first ascent then go do something else. That's it. Plain and simple.

Bruce

ps - and if you think my response is too harsh.... getting up something that is difficult is one of the major reasons I climb. Lowering a climb to the least common denominator removes that reason. If you are just looking for a day out in the mountains then go do something that is an easy day for you so you can just cruise and enjoy. If you are looking for a challenge, go do something hard. But, please don't confuse the two.

Mr Burr
Though you have obviously spent a great deal of time and effort justifying the correctness of your actions you will eventually have to acknowledge that YOU WERE WRONG! At this point it must be obvious that your first error was not communicating your intentions to the local climbing community BEFORE taking action. By not being proactive you set yourself up for the firestorm of disapproval that has quite properly engulfed you. Even if you had just SAID IT OUT LOUD, while packing down bagels and lattes at any T-Ride bistro, someone (probably many someones) would have clearly told you "WRONG" or "DON'T"! I am sure your group of young buddies probably agrees with you. But I am equally sure they have limited connection with the rich history and vibrant present of the local climbing community. I have been away for longer than you have been climbing and I probably still have a deeper connection to the land there. And I can tell you unequivocally that consensus in T-Ride as well as in the much wider climbing community is You were wrong. Even in too hip Boulder, where hubris walks on stilts, the ego driven still have enough sense to consult the locals and seek consensus before breaking out the Bosch. Why didn't you say something first? If you had indeed led all these difficult ice climbs that many times (this year alone) then you HAD NO REASON to need a bolt.

I am going to make up a new "old" adage....
In the absence of skill and without knowledge or experience brute force and dumb luck might carry the day.

It is correct that modern equipment makes ice climbing easier and more accessible to more and more people. But that does not mean that those people have a real clue about what they are doing. Any monkey can, with a little practice, smash and bash their way up anything with little or no skill. Could the rapid deterioration of the climb (that you mentioned in your letter to the T-Ride rag) be in large part caused by too many inexperienced climbers flexing their egos all over Ames without the skill to climb it without damaging the medium? To watch a truly talented ice climber is to watch artistry in action. If anything the early ascensionists of Ames should be afforded even greater respect for climbing that route with the gear of the day. Those guys were masters of the craft who could take the gear of the day anywhere in the world and climb with skill, style and environmental sensitivity. They also knew their history even while making their own. They also respected the pioneers who came before them. Apparently these days we have a deluge of Machiavellian climbers who are ignorant of exactly whose shoulders they are standing on. Well..."It used to be said that ignorance is bliss", but really there is NO REWARD for IGNORANCE!

This is truly disgusting. I could sit here and be eloquent and well spoken, oh wait, some of the greatest and most respected names in climbing have tried that...no dice. This taint itch (which is all you really amount too, T-minus on your 15 minutes Chuck) needs a code red, plain and simple.

WHACK THE BOLT!

Is it there now? I'm 7 hours away and would have to talk Spanish John into leading the pitch. Because I stink worse than his shoes in LAX.

Climbing, least muthafuqin of all ice and alpine climbing, are not for everyone, and are inherently NOT SAFE. You can add this one bolt to vanilla up this one spot, but people like you are never safe enough, you will find your next little spot to rub you vag on...yeah I said vag.

CHUCK YOU NEED TO GO TO THE OPTOMETRIST! I have less than $200 to my name, but I will pay...YOUR VISION IS FUQED!!!!!

THIS ISN'T FRANCE!!!!
A to the K

So I openly admit I have too much time on my hands, but this stuff just pisses me off. Here is my blog entry after I pondered this a little more...maybe some of you other brokebacks will stand up with me...

This breaks my heart. I understand this is the seemingly natural cycle as more people poor into climbing...but stay the FUCK away from the mountains of Colorado...you know, the crucible where the last 50 years of cutting-edge climbers have come up, and climbed the same routes with so much less than is available today. This really just chaps my ass, and I hate that. No one stands up straight and says "NOT ON MY WATCH". They are soft spoken and diplomatic...check out this weekends Telluride Daily Planet to see where that lead in this situation.

I honestly don't know where/when it all went wrong? I used to love to meet people out in the hills, now, more often than not unless you're on something with a bit of old-school spice there is something in the air that doesn't promote the brotherhood that once was a bastion of the climbing community.

The torch bearers are underground...I don't know why I'm so vocal, don't others share the love? I know for a fact they do. Maybe I too need to yield. I can't stand by and watch the love of my life get whored out, stripped of her purity, trampled on, and made to believe SHE is the one out of touch with the times.

Stand up with me and say "NOT ON MY WATCH"...can I get an amen?

Amen brother.

This quote was from the letter provided in defense of the bolt:
"Actually the alternative rock route is not the same. The bomber flake the first ascenders were able to grab has come off and the only seam to place a small aid nut is now almost busted out. The rock resource is deteriorating quickly from all the crampon traffic and must be preserved for future generations."

So do you think adding a bolt will increase or decrease the amount of crampon wear on the rock now that the route is more accessible?

Why assault the placer though? Why not go remove the bolt completely? Leaving the bolt sets a precedent that retros will be left, which is to say that retro-bolters will be given incentive to keep retro-bolting.

If you were caught red-handed in theft of a bank and the cops told you 'no' but let you keep the money, I suspect robbing banks would become a common activity.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in the very first post on this subject they said the bolt was removed immediately.

Jason, you are correct, the bolt was removed awhile ago, as stated in the first post. The overwhelming consensus of the local climbing community was that adding a bolt to the route was highly inappropriate. The Ice Hose wasn't broken and didn't need fixing. It was restored to its original condition and remains that way. It's more popular than ever, I might add.

cheers, Charlie

Having rarely joined a forum before, I feel strong enough about this issue to dive in and read what everyone has to say. The "hose" has a history. This is not a roadside crag, or a route for the masses. The "hose" is a Colorado Classic! There is the most amazing photo of Tom Pulaski, leading the "suspect pitch" in the 1970's with a long ice axe and a hammer. He is climbing with little to no ice. This is before modern gear and mixed climbing. I will try to have this photo posted, it will blow your mind! This route was bold from the first ascent and everyone would agree is bold today. Being bold is a choice, a state of mind, combined with fitness and experience. We should not bring routes down to our level. We should become better climbers, then we can climb to our goals. I have failed on many routes because they were beyond my skill level, but I kept coming back, learning more and training harder, but never bringing the route to my level. If the route was too bold, I left it, to those who were bold!