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johnnyrig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 105
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David House · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 453

If you are doing multi pitch routes and the pitches are longer than half the rope, I would tie both the seconds in closer to the end, maybe 20 feet apart, and have them simul-climb. This avoids the need to simul-climb with the leader and risk pulling the leader off if the second falls. The leader can finish the pitch and set up the belay before the next climber starts climbing.

David House · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 453

Put your girl on third ;)
BTW I like the butterfly knot for tying in to the middle of a rope:

Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872

Johnny, I have to assume your third climber is someone you're trying to introduce to multipitch. You're profile also says your new to climbing and lacking experience. So I don't recommend trying this.

I'd beg/borrow/buy a second line for your third climber, you'll have a much better/safer time.

I've never done this myself, and i wouldn't try this without everyone in the team knowing what they are doing and being very comfortable with the climbing you're going to be on. Even on comfortable terrain, it'd be a last resort type thing for me - the only way to safety is up and i only have one rope. the second and third are in a way simuclimbing. Either one falling won't be horrific, but you could be in for a bit of an epic. If the third hangs or falls, the rope is going to stretch and the second is in for a nice suprise as they get ripped off the rock. There will be slack between the two, so its going to hit the middle climber hard. And if either one takes a bit of a swing it's going to be messy.

If you know the pitches are short, less than half the length of your rope, you can tie into and lead from the mid point of the rope and treat it like doubles or use single rope technique and treat the one end like a trail line, just make sure you know which end you're leading on, you don't want to accidently clip in with the un-belayed end.

Kris Holub · · Boulder, Colorado · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 70

I've actually climbed in a party of 4 before: I lead with two ropes and had one climber on a rope by themselves and 2 climbers on a second rope. We were actually remarkably efficient and even managed to pass a party of 2. There are 2 good options:

1) Use two ropes. Each climber ties in separately and climbs simultaneously slightly staggered or sequentially. If they climb simultaneously rope management can get tricky. If they climb sequentially it takes longer. There's also a bit of a problem on traversing pitches, as you need to protect both followers. This requires either placing separate protection or clipping both ropes into one piece. If you choose to clip both ropes into one piece, you need to be careful: either use twin ropes or make sure that one of the ropes will not be belayed so that it doesn't increase the load on the piece. Using two ropes has an advantage if you think it is likely that one or both climbers could fall, that way they won't be pulling each other off the rock.

2) Both seconds tie into the same rope. The strongest second ties in at the end, and the weaker second ties in with an alpine butterfly 15-20ft from the end. Both seconds climb together. Ideally, the last second (third) climber will not fall because if they do, they will pull the middle climber off. If the second (middle) climber falls, it will not affect the third climber. It is very important that the third climber maintains constant distance to keep too much slack from accumulating, but also doesn't climb too slow and hinder the progress of the middle climber. When the middle climber reaches protection, they simply unclip the piece and reclip it behind them. This leaves the third climber protected on the traverse and actually has the middle climber protected from any pendulum since they are effectively belayed on both sides. In summary, this method is good if your third climber is confident on the terrain, but not so good if they have a good chance of falling.

In either case, make sure you think about self rescue issues. Using two ropes gives you a lot more options. Putting both climbers on a single rope could substantially complicate a rescue should any one of the 3 of you become incapacitated.

David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410
David Houston wrote:Put your girl on third ;) BTW I like the butterfly knot for tying in to the middle of a rope:
I've simul-followed about 20 feet apart at the end of the rope with some swiss climbers with a figure eight on a bight (and a locker). Whatever knot you use, make the loop about 3 feet, that way if the third falls even with rope stretch they have around 6 feet before they pull on the second climber. Just don't make the loop so long that the second has to climb very far when the knot stops above them in a carabiner.

With your experience I would suggest not doing any of this stuff though.
Bobby Hanson · · Spokane, WA · Joined Oct 2001 · Points: 1,230

You'll be fine. Use either a butterfly or figure-8 on a bight with TWO locking biners, gates opposite and opposed.

If the pitches are less than half a rope length, tie the second in at the very middle. This way they will not be simul-climbing.

If the pitches are longer than that, you have two options: (1) put both climbers toward the bottom of the rope as previously described; or (2) tie the second climber in as close to the middle as possible.

The first option makes it easier for the two climbers to communicate. However, the second option means that the two won't be simul-climbing much of the pitch (the trade off also is that the first option is a bit faster for your team). If speed is not a concern, I recommend the second option. On a 35m pitch, the two will be simulclimbing for 10m instead of something more like 27m.

Put the strongest climber third, keep a tight belay, and climb something that is below the limit of the third climber (the second climber can thrash and dangle safely the whole way up).

-sp · · East-Coast · Joined May 2007 · Points: 75
johnnyrig wrote:Lots of "ack... don't do it... yer gonna die!". Yeah, well if that's the case, given all the "seek professional help" advice, then I shouldn't be climbing at all. But remember, I'm the dork in the helmet on lead in the gym in case I stick my foot behind the rope. I don't care what anyone else thinks, as long as I'm technically being as safe as I can. It's about balancing safety and personal responsibility against the risk of death or injury. You're there. You're climbing it anyway. So the goal is to reduce the risk as much as you can without looking up and running away. We're going to do it anyway, so we might as well get as many ideas as we can, vet them out, and reduce the risk as much as possible. For all you know, we might go work it out on a fourth class mound, or the front yard to get a grip on what's going to work for us. Sure not going to head out after some kinda 11. But hey, I'm doing that whole overconfident new climber b.s, huh? Guess I best go hide in the closet and cry. Seriously, if we try anything it will be on easy routes below our ability. Why not discuss situations before you get into them? Why not even before you're technically capable? Gives you more to think about and consider. Self-rescue is a huge issue I think everyone should have some knowledge of before you ever get on a rock... but how many of you seasoned dirtbags have taken the time to practice it? To that end, I prusiked up a 70ft wall tying backups every ten feet to get a feel for it before I could climb a oh screw it
Exactly two people have politely suggested not to do this based on what limted information you've provided. Both of those reponses were correct. But given the fuck-off tone in your post and your inability to recognize why a second rope is the best way to "reduce the risk as much as you can", I'm betting you'll do whatever you want regardless of what you read here.

Did I get that wrong?
Jonathan S · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 2,113

So I'd only attempt this on pitches where once you've built your anchor and are off belay you still have over half the rope length down on the ground.

At that point, I have the middle person clip in with a locker to a bowline on a bight, then belay them up having them clean all gear except for directionals.

Once they're up, belay the 3rd like normal having them clean all remaining gear.

Super easy, really manageable, just make sure you're climbing short pitches.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Larry S wrote: If you know the pitches are short, less than half the length of your rope, you can tie into and lead from the mid point of the rope and treat it like doubles or use single rope technique and treat the one end like a trail line, just make sure you know which end you're leading on, you don't want to accidently clip in with the un-belayed end.
This is my perfered method (as long as you know the pitches are less than half a rope length). I've done both (simul-following (use an alpine butterfly to tie in the middle climber), and leading from the midpoint of the rope) and think the leading from the midpoint of the rope is safer and easier. Just find the middle of your rope, tie a figure 8 on a bite, and clip into it with 2 lockers (so you don't cross-load one and break it in a fall). I usually just climb on one side of the rope instead of treating it like doubles, but so that I don't confuse what side I'm climbing on I'll take the non-belayed side of the rope and attach it to my haul loop so that it is out of the way and feels just like i'm trailing it. When you get to the top, just belay both seconds up using an autoblocker in "guide" mode. This method is fast and eliminates the risk of the third pulling the second off the rock.
David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410
johnnyrig wrote:Lots of "ack... don't do it... yer gonna die!". Yeah, well if that's the case, given all the "seek professional help" advice, then I shouldn't be climbing at all. But remember, I'm the dork in the helmet on lead in the gym in case I stick my foot behind the rope. I don't care what anyone else thinks, as long as I'm technically being as safe as I can. It's about balancing safety and personal responsibility against the risk of death or injury. You're there. You're climbing it anyway. So the goal is to reduce the risk as much as you can without looking up and running away. We're going to do it anyway, so we might as well get as many ideas as we can, vet them out, and reduce the risk as much as possible. For all you know, we might go work it out on a fourth class mound, or the front yard to get a grip on what's going to work for us. Sure not going to head out after some kinda 11. But hey, I'm doing that whole overconfident new climber b.s, huh? Guess I best go hide in the closet and cry. Seriously, if we try anything it will be on easy routes below our ability. Why not discuss situations before you get into them? Why not even before you're technically capable? Gives you more to think about and consider. Self-rescue is a huge issue I think everyone should have some knowledge of before you ever get on a rock... but how many of you seasoned dirtbags have taken the time to practice it? To that end, I prusiked up a 70ft wall tying backups every ten feet to get a feel for it before I could climb a oh screw it
Relax, I still gave you tips on how to do it. I think you can try whatever you want, as long as your partners understand the risks and that you have never done this before. I like your sense of adventure; just make sure your partners are willing to take the same risks and are planning for the same adventure.
David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410
The Bobby wrote:If the pitches are longer than that, you have two options: (1) put both climbers toward the bottom of the rope as previously described; or (2) tie the second climber in as close to the middle as possible. The first option makes it easier for the two climbers to communicate. However, the second option means that the two won't be simul-climbing much of the pitch (the trade off also is that the first option is a bit faster for your team). If speed is not a concern, I recommend the second option. On a 35m pitch, the two will be simulclimbing for 10m instead of something more like 27m. Put the strongest climber third, keep a tight belay, and climb something that is below the limit of the third climber (the second climber can thrash and dangle safely the whole way up).
In option number 2 you just set up your worst climber to be simulclimbing with your leader. This is a terrible idea.

There is a huge difference in danger in terms of simulclimbing and simulfollowing. Option number 2 is much more dangerous because if the pitch is 35m and the second is tied into the middle he will have to simulclimb with the leader for 5m.
Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669
steitz wrote: At that point, I have the middle person clip in with a locker to a bowline on a bight, then belay them up having them clean all gear except for directionals. Once their up, belay the 3rd like normal having them clean all remaining gear. Super easy, really manageable, just make sure you're climbing short pitches.
i like this, however, i would actually tie the bowline into the harness instead of clipping in with lockers
Bobby Hanson · · Spokane, WA · Joined Oct 2001 · Points: 1,230

David, I didn't explain it well. No simul with the leader. The leader sets up the anchor and puts the second on belay without pulling up any rope. The second climbs up, on belay. The third is not on the rope until the second is near the top, which reduces the amount of time the second and third are simulclimbing.

David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410
The Bobby wrote:David, I didn't explain it well. No simul with the leader. The leader sets up the anchor and puts the second on belay without pulling up any rope. The second climbs up, on belay. The third is not on the rope until the second is near the top, which reduces the amount of time the second and third are simulclimbing.
Gotcha. Yeah, that is a good way then. Of course on multipitch with not all pitches equal it would mean the second tying in to the anchor with something else and then untying themselves from the rope until the leader has reached the next anchor and is ready to belay them again.
-sp · · East-Coast · Joined May 2007 · Points: 75
Darren Mabe wrote: i like this, however, i would actually tie the bowline into the harness instead of clipping in with lockers
Do you mean you'd actually thread half the rope through the harness and tie a bowline (effectively making it impossible to get the middle climber off the rope without untying either the leader or third)? Or do you mean you'd grab a bight and tie a giant double-strand bowline (securing the tail with an equally giant knot)?
Or is there something else in this that is sailing over my head.
Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759
-sp wrote: Do you mean you'd actually thread half the rope through the harness and tie a bowline (effectively making it impossible to get the middle climber off the rope without untying either the leader or third)? Or do you mean you'd grab a bight and tie a giant double-strand bowline (securing the tail with an equally giant knot)? Or is there something else in this that is sailing over my head.
That knot can be tied by stepping through the loop that is passed over the rest of the knot.
It can be untied in the same manner as long as there isn't tension on the rope.
-sp · · East-Coast · Joined May 2007 · Points: 75
Gregger Man wrote: That knot can be tied by stepping through the loop that is passed over the rest of the knot. It can be untied in the same manner as long as there isn't tension on the rope.
Ah yes, as just demonstrated in my office - much to the amusement of my adjacent pleated-khaki-wearing cell-mate.
Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759
-sp wrote: Ah yes, as just demonstrated in my office - much to the amusement of my adjacent pleated-khaki-wearing cell-mate.
Important question:
Does your office require a 60- or a 70-meter rope?
Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669
-sp wrote:Or do you mean you'd grab a bight and tie a giant double-strand bowline (securing the tail with an equally giant knot)?
yeah... i was saying to tie a bowline like normal into the tie-in loops. maybe overhand the tail, or clip biner. (the knot would look slightly different than the above bowline-on-bight image)

and more like this, tie in point where my fingers are
Bowline
Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759
Darren Mabe wrote: yeah... i was saying to tie a bowline like normal into the tie-in loops. maybe overhand the tail, or clip biner. (the knot would look slightly different than the above bowline-on-bight image) and more like this, tie in point where my fingers are
Darren - C'mon: this is neat-o by comparison.

youtube.com/watch?v=PzIP4IU…
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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