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La Mesa has been chopped. yes, the one from the April cover of Rock and Ice
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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Mar 26, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on
Oh shit now I am contributing by adding a page to this nonsense...greeeeeeeat

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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Mar 26, 2013
Rumney
Ben Brotelho wrote:
I would be interested to know what cliffs in the ADK are experiencing these problems. Not that I frequent any cliffs with bolts, but it would be interesting to know which ones that have been "chopped." I'm assuming some southern crag near Lake George?


Message him to find out. He lives in the Caroga Lake area.

Ben, I feel your pain. Seems like these topics get recycled regularly on MP. I recall a similar topic about an area around Justin not that long ago. Wonder if they're related.

There's a lot of assholes on both sides of this issue -- people who bolt with zero input from the community and those who have zero tolerance for any bolting whatsoever. Extremes are useless if you live on a planet with other beings.

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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Mar 26, 2013
Rumney
David Sahalie wrote:
Mo, Thanks for deleting my post. I've learned my lesson not to question authority. I get it, you are in charge and can delete posts that question your power at any time. David


That is weak, I thought your post was pointed but respectful. Imagine that, an admin abusing their power.

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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Mar 26, 2013
Stoked...
You know what they say about assumptions right David?

I hate to burst your censorship bubble but I'm only a route section admin...

What that means is this... I can edit and approve content for only the CT routes sections. I have 0, as in none, zilch, zip, nada, authority in the forums. . . someone must have flag it or something and a forum admin removed it. For the record I have not flagged any posts in here and I would reach out to someone first before pursuing deleting their post.

I just checked the flag records and I don't see it flagged so I don't know what happened...sorry.

Oh and thanks for the apologies for jumping the gun and accusing me of something I didn't and wouldn't do...

Lastly I personally thought up until reg's troll post most comments were good. And just so you know before you all shame an admin for some perceived action... at the top of forum pages it lists the admins responsible for that section for the eastern states it is as follows:


Eastern States
Regional Discussion Forum: Areas include New York, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Vermont
Forum Administrator: Peter Franzen, Adam Stackhouse, M Sprague, saxfiend, Chris treggE, Peter Franzen, Adam Stackhouse, M Sprague, saxfiend, Chris treggE

mountainproject.com/v/eastern-...

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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Mar 26, 2013
Fair enough Mo. It sounds like you have another admin protecting your honor. MP is a rough world, good to have friends.

I don't see how my post was in any way offensive and deserved flagging or banning. But, the MP gods are greater than my feeble user profile; I shall trust in their judgement and consequences for my offences.

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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Mar 26, 2013
modern man
I used to get accused of deleting posts too before Mo took over, it was amusing.I remember one guy from Vegas that used to flip out on me for the same.

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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Mar 26, 2013
Stoked...
David Sahalie wrote:
Fair enough Mo. It sounds like you have another admin protecting your honor. MP is a rough world, good to have friends. I don't see how my post was in any way offensive and deserved flagging or banning. But, the MP gods are greater than my feeble user profile; I shall trust in their judgement and consequences for my offences.


Wait was it was the Ivan comment? If it was I didn't have any issue with it. It was on the line I thought but i would have sent u a message first either way. My Ivan post was a blatant intentional 'blowing up' of the issue. Ivan was starting to show up in CT and his action needed to be known to the community. Despite what Tonto posted I didn't blow up anything in NM - I had two comments about the NM situation in that thread. His post is way off base and I wrote him a message expressing my opinion on the matter.

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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Mar 26, 2013
Stoked...
turbotime wrote:
We should be coming to terms as a community with where the direction of climbing is headed in CT and balance that with the established climbing. It can't be one extreme or the other (nothing bolted/everything bolted). It needs to be looked at from perspective of if climbs are going to be bolted, they should be those where natural protection is not an option, and weigh if the damage (if any) being done by top rope setups justifies putting bolts instead.


From my discussions with developers in the state - all recently bolted routes with the exception of 1, maybe 2 routes, has been entirely consistent with the above. It was not until the article that someone from the anti-bolt side apparently took the extreme action. Where almost everyone on the bolting side seems to be in the middle ground this individual has propelled the extreme of one side.

I advocate that folks use restraint on both sides and if there are concerns or issues with a bolted route to contact the Ragged Mountain Foundation (www.raggedmtn.org) or the Access Fund. The individuals in these organizations (myself being one) can likely figure out the developers and raise the concern and begin a discussion between the parties and work to a resolution.

Extreme action like this will most likely result in an extreme reaction that in the end probably wont benefit any one group.

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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Mar 26, 2013
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.
For every route chopped, two top ropes or R/X rated routes should get bolted at East Peak or the Main Cliff ;))) I'd vote for In the Presence of God and Golden Age (((JK)))

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By nick manning
From superior,az
Mar 26, 2013
The local climbers group(i assume thats what the ragged mtn foundation is?) and the access fund need to just continue to get permission from towns and landowners to bolt routes.

Its that simple, that way when the choppers get caught they can be prosecuted. Its the only solution that works in the long run.

Here in AZ we have different ways of dealing with people like this but its the wild west out here.

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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Mar 26, 2013
modern man
Ms.M wrote:
Nick, the local climbers group (Ragged Mountain Foundation) does have permission to restore bolts at the top of the cliff. They have chosen for years not to, anticipating that they would be chopped and the rock would be defaced. I once participated in their group. When voicing my concerns about this (in an attempt to have a discussion) I was gently pulled aside and told that another individual had buckets of roofing nails poured on their driveway when they voices support for bolts. It is numerous situations like that which have contributed to the current situation. It all disgusts me. We drive in fossil fuel burning cars over roads that are built through sections of blasted rock so that the road isn't too curvy, and hike in through parks where the trees had all be at one time clear cut by the early settlers of the area. The argument against bolts is just silly in my thinking, and antiquated.


lets not forget the trees with spray paint on them so people dont get lost in 10 acre parcels of land all over the place, the kiosks in the middle of the woods and metal plaques glued to the wall in memory of people passed or the new growth at the tops of the cliffs that just doesnt seem to be getting any bigger even though we live in a perfect climate for most trees to thrive.

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By Reginald McChufferton
Mar 26, 2013
So since we dropped nuclear bombs on Japan in the past would you guys be cool with firebombing them just a little? I mean others did something much worse in the past so that's free license for this current generation to just do whatever the hell they want to right?

You guys also understand that someday we WILL run out of rock to bolt. It's funny how Sportos don't even realize that they are they're own worst enemy. Just keep pissing off the old guys and see who's got more pull with the powers that be! What are you going to do when the land managers decide that ALL bolts are no bueno because they're sick of dealing with the mess? Learn to trad climb? Doubt it! It's not convenient and sterilized for your enjoyment and since Sportos are the laziest of pretty much any outdoor user group my guess is they'll all take up Chess or politics or something.


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By JoshCalvin
Mar 27, 2013
Reginald your argument is sound, past incursions do not pave way for slighter, newer ones. However its arguable that the impetus for the chopper in question was not likely environmental ethics; more likely hubris, a grudge, or naivety.

Some of us occasionally like to climb things that are not able to be protected with trad gear, and since top roping is like kissing your sister: There Will Be Bolts! I'm finished!

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By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Mar 27, 2013
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3
does anyone besides climbers really care about bolts in rock?

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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Mar 27, 2013
JoshCalvin wrote:
and since top roping is like kissing your sister:


good one.

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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Mar 27, 2013
superkick wrote:
does anyone besides climbers really care about bolts in rock?


Nobody but climbers care about anything to do with climbing but climbers.

My obtuse point earlier, which got deleted by a mystery over-sensitive admin was that if you showed the general public a video of someone placing a bolt whether on lead with a hand drill or with a hammer drill on rappel, and then showed them the Ivan video and asked which is more of an impact...?

The rules, 'ethics', good guys and bad guys are all in our own heads.

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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Mar 27, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on
Am I the only one who doesn't abhor top-roping?

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By Reginald McChufferton
Mar 27, 2013
David Sahalie wrote:
Nobody but climbers care about anything to do with climbing but climbers.


SWING and a miss...

mountainproject.com/v/park-ser...

Googles got tons more of this kind of thing if you care to stick your head out of the wet paper sack you're hiding in.

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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Mar 27, 2013
Rumney
Ben Brotelho wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't abhor top-roping?


Since we're having a conversation within a conversation, I'm right there with you. But there are climbers whose idea of "fun" is feeling sketched out, so TR'ing does zilch for them if they can't shit their pants on lead. I've said it a few times here, but it's worth repeating ad nauseum - I don't climb for the fear factor rush. I just like movement on rock. That's just me. I'm probably the wacko.

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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Mar 27, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
Kevin Heckeler wrote:
Since we're having a conversation within a conversation, I'm right there with you. But there are climbers whose idea of "fun" is feeling sketched out, so TR'ing does zilch for them if they can't shit their pants on lead. I've said it a few times here, but it's worth repeating ad nauseum - I don't climb for the fear factor rush. I just like movement on rock. That's just me. I'm probably the wacko.


I think that's probably accurate, but that's only part of it. Climbers are a selfish bunch, and we like options. What could be better than a crag that you can top rope, lead on bolts, and on gear? You'll always offend/piss off someone, and never please everyone if there aren't a myriad of options under the sun to please every little twerp that happens along.

Humility and creativity, not just in climbing, but in our culture in general is what is missing from many of these equations. If people just learned to appreciate what they have and make the best of it, or sack up and move (yeah, yeah I know that's not always an option, but I live in VA for fuck's sake so I know what I'm talking about) if it's that important to you, then you wouldn't see all these bellyaching pissant discussions all the time. Btw, I like it all. Except the cold shit. You can have that. NYers/NEnglanders. My $.02 probably not worth $.02.

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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Mar 27, 2013
Rumney
Jake Jones wrote:
... or sack up and move...


You don't even know how hard I'm working that! lol

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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Mar 27, 2013
Stoked...
This really isn't much of a debate within the CT community IMO - this is likely the reaction of a mentally ill sociopath to an article written in a piece of shit rag that doesn't care about climbing, only revenue. For the record the RMF and the AF have not to date engaged in any conversations with landowners about placing bolts on property other then their own. The RMF (as i understand it being on the board) is in the process of replacing historical fixed gear, slowly, very very slowly.

Sprague! You're incorrigible! But Golden Age would be amazing on lead! Lutkis saw me workin it one day and said wow that would make a great sport route - go figure.

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By jim.dangle
Mar 27, 2013
Ben Brotelho wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't abhor top-roping?


No, you are not the only one.

You are also joined by some of the best climbers in the world who regularly top-rope routes prior to leading. Tommy Caldwell, for instance, has basically been top-roping the Dawn Wall for however long he's been at it. it basically gets you up Cobra Crack, but it just doesn't get you on the cover of Rock and Ice.

You also joined by a lot of climbers who grew up climbing in southern NE in the 80s and 90s when retrobolting was almost non-existent and top-roping was seen as a fun, easy and non-destructive way to practice for more committing leads.

This new dismissive attitude to top-roping is laughable. It's as if people think that you are a coward if throw a top-rope down, whereas if you rap down with a power drill, permanently installing specially manufactured, stainless steel bolts every five feet on 40 foot 5.9, which you then use an extendable pole to stick clip, you are suddenly some sort of extreme sport/adrenaline junkie/dare devil. Ultimate hardo move. I'm not making fun of bolt-clipping here-- I do it happily. But not at the expense of top-roping and not because I think it make me cool.

All I would add to this "conversation" is that I don't find the discussion on MP representative of wider attitudes to bolting in New England. Most of the sport climbers I know are busy bouldering and going to the gym and hitting up some of the of the established and world class bolted areas nearby on weekends. Ethics aside, they are not interested in "developing" areas people have been happy top-roping for generations.

Retro-bolting and bolt-chopping are both stupid. If we can agree on that, then there will never be a problem.

Jim

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By Auto-X Fil
From NEPA and Upper Jay, NY
Mar 27, 2013
jim.dangle wrote:
This new dismissive attitude to top-roping is laughable.



I agree. I TR, and I trad climb, generally in places with no fixed anchors or other evidence of the route. I know this isn't the current culture, but it's what appeals to me. If I can't get up it on my own, ground-up, then I might as well just TR. I get the use of some bolts to push an otherwise X-rated route with asthetic value, but single-pitch sport that can be TR'd isn't "climbing" anymore than TRing is to me. Instead, I like to approach every climb like it's a big mountain problem that must be solved on the spot. This also means I French-free or straight-up aid to top out, instead of bailing or falling and then projecting the climb. I don't care if anyone else uses this ethic or another one - it's what makes sense to me.

Before all the bolt-clippers get upset - I have no problem with you drilling bolts and clipping them, in certain places. The impact due to climbers is usually huge in terms of access paths, vegetation and choss clearning, etc. A few pieces of metal don't bother me, although I personally don't get any enjoyment out of them, so I'd never place them if I could climb it any other way.

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By David Barbour
From Longmont, CO
Mar 27, 2013
jim.dangle wrote:
No, you are not the only one. You are also joined by some of the best climbers in the world who regularly top-rope routes prior to leading. Tommy Caldwell, for instance, has basically been top-roping the Dawn Wall for however long he's been at it. it basically gets you up Cobra Crack, but it just doesn't get you on the cover of Rock and Ice. You also joined by a lot of climbers who grew up climbing in southern NE in the 80s and 90s when retrobolting was almost non-existent and top-roping was seen as a fun, easy and non-destructive way to practice for more committing leads. This new dismissive attitude to top-roping is laughable. It's as if people think that you are a coward if throw a top-rope down, whereas if you rap down with a power drill, permanently installing specially manufactured, stainless steel bolts every five feet on 40 foot 5.9, which you then use an extendable pole to stick clip, you are suddenly some sort of extreme sport/adrenaline junkie/dare devil. Ultimate hardo move. I'm not making fun of bolt-clipping here-- I do it happily. But not at the expense of top-roping and not because I think it make me cool. All I would add to this "conversation" is that I don't find the discussion on MP representative of wider attitudes to bolting in New England. Most of the sport climbers I know are busy bouldering and going to the gym and hitting up some of the of the established and world class bolted areas nearby on weekends. Ethics aside, they are not interested in "developing" areas people have been happy top-roping for generations. Retro-bolting and bolt-chopping are both stupid. If we can agree on that, then there will never be a problem. Jim


I don't understand why we need top-rope only areas. You can top-rope a sport climb. Pilot Mountain, NC is a predominately top-rope area, but many lines are currently being bolted because there's no reason not to. I'm all for it.

FLAG


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